Example of what happens with illegal aliens

[IndySSD]

Actually I personally feel you should have been Jailed for aiding a Criminal...

At least a heavy fine and a "stackable" misdemeanor conviction of violation of US Labor laws.

jeremy is right, if nobody would hired illegals, they won't be coming here, but the greed of saving a couple of dollars, you have sold out all AMERICANS that are here LEGALLY

Yes, but on the basis of the following pieces of information:

1: a guy named Pedro
2: who doesn't speak much English and
3: charges less than the local white guys,

you and Jeremy are going to assume that he's illegal until proven otherwise. Tell me how else that's supposed to play.

Uhm.... every naturalized citizen I've ever worked with or known (at least 15 that I can remember, mostly from Palestine, India, China with a couple of Mexicans) has spoken completely understandable English and commented quite vigorously about how much of a sticking point speaking clear English was during their process.

I wouldn't have a problem with cross-border labor competition if it were actually competing on the same playing field. But the current labor regulations in the U.S. don't allow for that. So until then, I will be opposed to a FOREIGN labor force that reaps the benefits, but pays none of the costs, nor assumes any of the risks.

For me it's not different. It's additional. One group handicaps us and creates the vacuum, the other violates our sovereignty and sweeps in to take advantage of it.

Allow me to burst this bubble for ya . You and Elsie seem to see the problem as a matter of quality of workmanship and price , which simply isn't the case .

I , as well as thousands of other construction working Americans in this city have spent YEARS building good reputations and references by providing quality work for a FAIR price , regardless of their specific trades be they brickies , painters , roofers , etc .

I've never had a problem competing with fellow Americans because with few exceptions (GC's BIL does the same work type stuff) we all had the same rules to compete by .

Quality of workmanship issues : The "average" homeowner wouldn't know the difference between a good job or bad one if they were slapped with one .

Price issues : Any more because of the economy (I think) , people want the cheapest price they can get .

Joe American has to pay taxes , helpers , cost of doing business legitimately , workman's comp , have insurance , cost of living (food , mortgage , car note, etc) and doesn't get any help from the government because they make too much money to qualify for the help .

Illegal pedro doesn't have to "pay to play" (see above) because on paper , as far as the government is concerned , he's poor and needs assistance .

^^^ It's called an unfair advantage , yes , they has them .

The average homeowner isn't going to remodel their homes every year so the problem that creates is that you do a good job for them and then next year they call you back to do one more room for them .

I don't see the immigration issue as one of being racist or not .

IMO , Americans have become FAT , STUPID AND LAZY . What ever happened to the idea that if you don't work , you don't eat ?

My theory goes like this , far too many of those in the upper socioeconomic classes have way too much time to consider the philosophical conundrums that life throws at us .

They don't have callouses on their hands and have forgotten what it's like to actually work . Maybe they have good paying jobs and good benefits like plenty of time off .

This time is spent considering the struggle of the various ans and cans . They want to feel good about their selves so they support whatever liberal , PC, BS programs to help to help the poor , ans and cans .

By doing so , they in fact help destroy the American middle class .

But that doesn't matter because they feel good inside knowing that they've worked on a Habitat for humanity house , adopted a less fortunate foreign baby or maybe they volunteer at the local law firm that does pro bono work for immigrants .

Think we don't have said law firms in this city ? Last time I talked to a lawyer he wanted $1,000 for 3 hours "work" , WTF ?

They don't see illegal immigration as a problem because they aren't directly affected enough to snap out of the illusion of the liberal , PC world of rainbows and unicorns .

Think immigrants don't get guberment assistance ? I can take you to the south side and show you guberment housing (projects / red maple grove) built for the poor and immigrants like three years ago , or what's left of them now.

Jessie Jackson would be proud of the diversity in that place , every kind of an and can you think of . Never mind the dude with the black Bentley though , I'm sure he's a shining example of a model citizen .

Of course none of this matters much at all because in this brave new world of the "fundamentally changed America" we're expected to cast off the notion of American exceptualisim (sp), sit back & shut up while our "pursuit of happiness" gets trampled to hell and back just so we can be kinder , softer , gentler citizens of the world .

Never in a million years will Americans working under the restrictions of the burdensome regulatory scheme now in place be able to compete with a work force capable of producing similar results for less.

So are you in favor of a bigger or smaller government solution? Are you asking for more protectionary regulations or eliminating the regulations strangling American workers and businesses.

This is actually a good point on both ends and I'm curious to read the reasoning behind the regulations that currently exist for employers.



So many rep'able posts... so little rep to spread....

 

[Fletch]

Uhm.... every naturalized citizen I've ever worked with or known (at least 15 that I can remember, mostly from Palestine, India, China with a couple of Mexicans) has spoken completely understandable English and commented quite vigorously about how much of a sticking point speaking clear English was during their process.

You are aware, I hope, that there exist a vast array of legal immigration statuses other than "naturalized citizen"? Most of the legal immigrants I worked with were not naturalized yet, and spoke barely comprehensible, heavily accented English.

 

[88GT]

So are you in favor of a bigger or smaller government solution? Are you asking for more protectionary regulations or eliminating the regulations strangling American workers and businesses.

When have I ever advocated a government solution to a market issue?

If government will not untie the hands of American workers through the abolition of minimum wage, age limits, withholding requirements (though that opens a completely different can of worms, but if I'm going, I'm going big), etc, then by God they owe us the courtesy of not allowing cheaters to play the game as well.

I would prefer a truly free market absent 99.99% of the current laws and regulations, but since that won't happen, I won't lose sleep over telling the other boys on the playground they have to go home if they won't play by the rules.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I don't see this as a problem. As I stated upthread, I worked in Detroit for about 5 years, alongside (East) Indian and Chinese contract programmers who did pretty much exactly the same thing as me. One of them would get here through the process, start a business, and become an anchor. He'd rent a little house somewhere and start stacking the Apus or Changs in it like cordwood with work visas, and sell their programming services for $20k/year/programmer at a time when the market was rising through the $40 - 50k range and up.

It's what's known as a competitive advantage, and in this case it's a cultural competitive advantage. As a result of their culture, they don't mind being crammed into places to live. 5 people to a bedroom in America is still better than the houses they probably came from. We have a cultural disadvantage in that most Americans want some elbow room, and the "nuclear family" household is our cultural standard nowadays. So our COGS is considerably higher than a competing immigrant worker, and our price for labor is as well.

We therefore have to find other ways to distinguish ourselves in the field of competitors. I did it by offering demonstrably better work, easier communication (since English is my first language), and a higher standard of quality. As a result I was able to maintain the lifestyle to which I'm culturally inclined, instead of moving into the modern equivalent of a boarding house. Cheap foreign labor forced me to become better at what I do.

Maybe there isn't enough room for differentiating one tile job from another to make that kind of distinction; I don't know, I'm not a tile guy. But I've seen some good tile jobs and some really really awful ones, so I'm inclined to believe that if Jose and Jorge are doing top-end work, maybe their prices more accurately reflect what the job is worth. If they're not, then there is room for differentiation.

Just to be clear, when I address this, I am not talking about their advantages that result from working illegally, only their cultural advantages. I'm in full agreement that the tax situation should be the same all around.

They also do not feel the need to own 4 cars for 4 people. 3 dvd players, 5 televisions and whatever else we Americans CANNOT live without. Like you said even the ones here Legally will room together and split expenses. The same reason when a lot of us moved out for the first time we got a roommate or two.

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

The crime by You or Him?!

Him...
Title 8 USC 1325

I have no evidence that suggests this. As Fletch already pointed out, the only reason anyone would have to suspect this is that 1) His name is Pedro 2) He speaks poor English 3) He charges less and 4) I'd have to add he works harder tham most white Americans I know.

I don't think any of that would hold up in a court of law. Do you?

You MIGHT be smoking crack right now. People might have reason to believe this. You are as guilty of that as he is of Title 8 USC 1325 in my eyes.

You...
CPC 401 Aiding and Abetting...

See above.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Elsie, I already mentioned this in your rep so this is for everyone else.

Let us say she did ask Pedro if he was legal.
Pedro says yes.
Should she not just take him at his word?
Just like I have done with everyone from INGO that I have sold too. I asked if they were a proper person, they said yes. Deal done

 

[Lead Head]

My employer is begging for workers right now. We are bringing in new groups of temps every week with a turn over rate of at least 50% in the first week. The pay starts at $10 an hour and is pretty simple work for those who are used to actually working.

If they could legally bus workers up from Mexico, I'm sure they'd do it in a heartbeat.

$10.00 is the new minimum wage in real world conditions and you can't support a family on it.

Employers who won't pay a real living wage will face extreme turnover and once the economy finally recovers, employers who used people like slave dogs will suffer badly. It's already happening.

Maybe this specific employer is decent to work for but money talks.

 

[Fletch]

$10.00 is the new minimum wage in real world conditions and you can't support a family on it.

Employers who won't pay a real living wage will face extreme turnover and once the economy finally recovers, employers who used people like slave dogs will suffer badly. It's already happening.

Maybe this specific employer is decent to work for but money talks.

So do skills and effort. How much is it worth to have someone sweep the floor, or put tab A into slot B? "Pretty simple work" says "unskilled or semi-skilled labor" to me, like McDonald's. That's simply not worth $20/hour. It doesn't make any sense at all to pay someone that kind of money for doing monkeywork. On the other hand, you could get a guy at $10/hour who wants to work, and shows himself diligent and eager to learn, and if you're a smart manager/foreman, you'll train him to do something more important and bump his pay. But everybody's got to pay their dues.

 

[jeremy]

I have no evidence that suggests this. As Fletch already pointed out, the only reason anyone would have to suspect this is that 1) His name is Pedro 2) He speaks poor English 3) He charges less and 4) I'd have to add he works harder tham most white Americans I know.

I don't think any of that would hold up in a court of law. Do you?

You MIGHT be smoking crack right now. People might have reason to believe this. You are as guilty of that as he is of Title 8 USC 1325 in my eyes.



See above.

Slippery...

 

[Lead Head]

Sorry OP but too many of your "facts" are incorrect... This is an old story and incorrect in so many ways... Sure makes you feel good when you are bashing the "illegals", but like so many other "comments" are based on hearsay and rumor...

Personally when ever I see something like this I replace the word illegal with "Jew" or "Black", if it then sounds like something spewed by the Nazis or some racist then guess what... it is... Just my

Except the "Jew" or "Black" as you say were never an illegal alien problem to begin with.

Specific to the average "black" person or African American (as some prefer to be called) the illegal alien is directly affecting their employment opportunities. The black unemployment rate is around 16.2%. This number can easily be doubled to match the unreported reality of the situation.

Employment Situation Summary

If I was black, I would be double pissed off for being lied to by Obummer and in general for allowing the "illegals" to suck the jobs out from underneath me, my family, my community, etc. I'm not black and I don't pretend to totally understand life from that perspective. We all want the basics when it comes down to it and illegals should be deported.

If your legal, don't give up. If your illegal, get out !

It has affected all of us in one was or another, black, white, jew, etc., including legal hispanics, etc. Legal hispanics are being sucked down the drain hole maybe even faster.

Do some ****ing research and look at it from all angles. This is NOT racism but it will eventually turn into ugly survival if the trend is not quickly reversed. 50 years ? 100 years ? Will see..........

NO AMNESTY !

NO DREAM ACT !

NO BULL**** !!!!

 

[Bunnykid68]

If you cannot live on $10 an hour you simply have too much debt and need to quit buying stuff unless its food.

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

Slippery...

You keep offering little quips about law breakig but have yet to offer any support for your position. I really am curious where you are coming from with this since the only thing I think I've gotten from your side of the argument is that he must be guilty because he speaks poor English. BTW, the cute little old lady that first told me about Pedro said, "And he knows the Latin names for every one of the trees!" LOL

The reality is, I don't particularly care whether he was legal or not. That is why I did not ask. I was not required to. He was a business owner and I contracted with his business. Do you know the citizenship status of every business you have given your hard earned money to?

He won over the competition fair and square. There was nothing shady at all about the way he did business and I had no reasonable suspicion he was committing a crime by taking such good care of my yard for a fair price.

I'm sorry that the lazy ass white guys didn't compete better. I was actually a little ashamed of hiring the one slightly more expensive lazy ass white guy because I momentarily, being new to southern California and listening to the wrong people, succumbed to the same racist BS thinking of "He's probably illegal-- come on-- A Mexican Gardener?" I was fortunate that I called myself on my own BS before I let it run wild.

 

[Fletch]

If you cannot live on $10 an hour you simply have too much debt and need to quit buying stuff unless its food.

True dat.

 

[hornadylnl]

$10.00 is the new minimum wage in real world conditions and you can't support a family on it.

Employers who won't pay a real living wage will face extreme turnover and once the economy finally recovers, employers who used people like slave dogs will suffer badly. It's already happening.

Maybe this specific employer is decent to work for but money talks.

$10 an hour is great money in a 10% unemployment economy. Very few of these people are getting less than 50 hours a week. You can get 70 if you want it.

Like Fletch said, come in and do great work, you can get hired on and move up. It's amazing how many of these temps can't grasp the concept of showing up to work every day. There are several of them who have double the attendance points that would get me terminated. If they'd just show up every day, they'd have 90% of their peers beat and a much better opportunity to get hired. If you were an employer, would you want to hire a guy who's making $10 an hour and give him a better job when he seems only willing to do $10 work? What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Most of these jobs require little to no cerebral activity. And you'd be amazed at how bad they suck at it. I've joked that the hiring test for these temps should be one of these.

 

[Garb]

$10 an hour is great money in a 10% unemployment economy. Very few of these people are getting less than 50 hours a week. You can get 70 if you want it.

Like Fletch said, come in and do great work, you can get hired on and move up. It's amazing how many of these temps can't grasp the concept of showing up to work every day. There are several of them who have double the attendance points that would get me terminated. If they'd just show up every day, they'd have 90% of their peers beat and a much better opportunity to get hired. If you were an employer, would you want to hire a guy who's making $10 an hour and give him a better job when he seems only willing to do $10 work? What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Most of these jobs require little to no cerebral activity. And you'd be amazed at how bad they suck at it. I've joked that the hiring test for these temps should be one of these.

Hahahaha I love that picture. And I hear you on the temp issues. I've also worked with quite a few people who say "work for what they pay you" and "you're working to hard". I just tell them maybe that attitude is the reason they start people out at $8.50 an hour at the particular factory I work at. Maybe someday people will finally understand that hard work pays off.

 

[TopDog]

You guys are too funny, I apologize for stating an opinion on this open board where we all come together to share ideas that conflicts with all of yours... In any case the "facts" stated are incorrect, get your facts straight if you are going to be telling stories..

Here are some "facts" on Welfare US Welfare System - Help for US Citizens an illegal can not get welfare for a start, nor unemployment, or a lot of other things that I just don't have time to educate all of you on... Get the facts, do a google search, it's not hard...

They get welfare for the anchor babies. The OP is pretty well on the money. Its to the point now that if you know any Mexicans as friends you can talk to them and they wont even try to hide their illegal activity. Why is that? Because this entire illegal invasion is sponsored by the US government as they (the government) look the other way when the immigration laws are broken and refuse to enforce laws that exist.

 

[Fletch]

He won over the competition fair and square. There was nothing shady at all about the way he did business and I had no reasonable suspicion he was committing a crime by taking such good care of my yard for a fair price.

I'm sorry that the lazy ass white guys didn't compete better. I was actually a little ashamed of hiring the one slightly more expensive lazy ass white guy because I momentarily, being new to southern California and listening to the wrong people, succumbed to the same racist BS thinking of "He's probably illegal-- come on-- A Mexican Gardener?" I was fortunate that I called myself on my own BS before I let it run wild.

IMO, the only real crime in the whole narrative is the fraud perpetrated by the white guy who took your money and killed your trees.

 

[hornadylnl]

Hahahaha I love that picture. And I hear you on the temp issues. I've also worked with quite a few people who say "work for what they pay you" and "you're working to hard". I just tell them maybe that attitude is the reason they start people out at $8.50 an hour at the particular factory I work at. Maybe someday people will finally understand that hard work pays off.

I've never worked a temp job before but I was brought up that if someone was kind enough to offer you a job, you proved to them they made the right decision. I started there at $10.95 an hour in 99 and I'm now at $22.00. All with in company training and opportunities that I took advantage of. I don't think any of the management has ever wished they had not extended those opportunities to me. When their equipment breaks down, they want me there. Many will ask for me over guys who have 4 times the seniority of me in my department.

 

[Garb]

I've never worked a temp job before but I was brought up that if someone was kind enough to offer you a job, you proved to them they made the right decision. I started there at $10.95 an hour in 99 and I'm now at $22.00. All with in company training and opportunities that I took advantage of. I don't think any of the management has ever wished they had not extended those opportunities to me. When their equipment breaks down, they want me there. Many will ask for me over guys who have 4 times the seniority of me in my department.

I don't think my company pays anybody $22.00 an hour. That being said, that doesn't mean I don't work hard. If I feel under appreciated then I look for another job. I think I've got it pretty good considering the state of the economy.

 

[hornadylnl]

I don't think my company pays anybody $22.00 an hour. That being said, that doesn't mean I don't work hard. If I feel under appreciated then I look for another job. I think I've got it pretty good considering the state of the economy.

Same here. I had a 5% pay cut for about 2 years and everyone else whined about it. I just got it back. While I glad to have it back, I wouldn't complain if I didn't. I saw a lot of good people laid off who would have been glad to keep their job even if it meant a 20% cut.