external safety hatred syndrome

[snowman46919]

If the bad guy takes your gun, don't you want your gun to have a safety, so you don't get shot with your own gun

If a bg takes your gun you might as well put your head between your legs and kiss your butt good bye and if you live through it GET MORE TRAINING.

 

[gunman41mag]

If a bg takes your gun you might as well put your head between your legs and kiss your butt good bye and if you live through it GET MORE TRAINING.

A safety doesn't make the gun less lethal, but it'll make it a lot safer

 

[snowman46919]

A safety doesn't make the gun less lethal, but it'll make it a lot safer

unless you forget to take it off when you draw

 

[gunman41mag]

unless you forget to take it off when you draw

When I grab my 1911, browning hi-power, cz-75, or h&k usp my thumb is already on the thumb safety as i'm pulling the gun out, just a little pressure & the safety is off, if you know about the safety

 

[snowman46919]

When I grab my 1911, browning hi-power, cz-75, or h&k usp my thumb is already on the thumb safety as i'm pulling the gun out, just a little pressure & the safety is off, if you know about the safety

You going to manage to flick it back on while your being disarmed? What if the BG's whole intent is to steal your gun and run. If you have been forcibly disarmed that easily your doing something wrong.

 

[JetGirl]

You going to manage to flick it back on while your being disarmed? What if the BG's whole intent is to steal your gun and run. If you have been forcibly disarmed that easily your doing something wrong.

Then you have exhibited BAD situational awareness by letting him get that close to you!

 

[gunman41mag]

You going to manage to flick it back on while your being disarmed? What if the BG's whole intent is to steal your gun and run. If you have been forcibly disarmed that easily your doing something wrong.

If while OC'ing, so nut can try to disarm you or if your CC and you end up in a fight, you just can't pull you gun out on an unarmed guy, but you're fighting & end up on the ground, the bad guy mite grab your gun then. For me I feel better with my carry gun COCK-N-LOCK & I won't forget to flick the safety

 

[snowman46919]

If while OC'ing, so nut can try to disarm you or if your CC and you end up in a fight, you just can't pull you gun out on an unarmed guy, but you're fighting & end up on the ground, the bad guy mite grab your gun then. For me I feel better with my carry gun COCK-N-LOCK & I won't forget to flick the safety

If some nut disarms me while I am open carrying he knows far more than the average thief about locking retention holsters, I had LEO buddies that had to take a second look at it to figure it out. If you get into a fight chances are you have bad situational awareness, you have made a bad decision, or this guy is bound and determined to make you have a bad day which is once again bad situational awareness

 

[bobzilla]

Then you have exhibited BAD situational awareness by letting him get that close to you!

This 100%.

 

[gunman41mag]

If some nut disarms me while I am open carrying he knows far more than the average thief about locking retention holsters, I had LEO buddies that had to take a second look at it to figure it out. If you get into a fight chances are you have bad situational awareness, you have made a bad decision, or this guy is bound and determined to make you have a bad day which is once again bad situational awareness

better to be safe than sorry

 

[jeremy]

If the bad guy takes your gun, don't you want your gun to have a safety, so you don't get shot with your own gun

Huh...
I bet if you are smart enough to figure out how to use the Safety so is the Bad Guy...

Then you have exhibited BAD situational awareness by letting him get that close to you!

Exactly!!!

If while OC'ing, so nut can try to disarm you or if your CC and you end up in a fight, you just can't pull you gun out on an unarmed guy, but you're fighting & end up on the ground, the bad guy mite grab your gun then. For me I feel better with my carry gun COCK-N-LOCK & I won't forget to flick the safety

If the BG is close enough to Grab hold of my Sidearm out of my hand in a fight it should have been still in the Holster and I should have been using a Knife...

 

[airmotive]

Yes, there is a lot of that on INGO and, as you can see, they'll tell you you aren't as concerned with firearm safety as you should be BECAUSE you have a safety on your pistol. I'm actually quite the opposite. With the exception of DA/SA all semi-autos should have a safety. It is unsafe and irresponsible to carry one otherwise. Someone made a good point earlier by questioning whether or not we can be 100% vigilant with the safety between our ears. The fact is we can not. It would only take one slip up for something terrible to happen. Brain flubs are common. Just ask yourself how many times you have put the peanut butter in the fridge and the jelly in the cabinet. (or some other example that better applies.)

Sticking a chunk of metal in the path of a moving part is a very reliable safety. It doesn't mean over reliance. You would be hard pressed to find someone who carries a safety equipped handgun that believes they can yank on the trigger and point it wherever they want because the safety is engaged. All safety rules still apply. Actually, it really is about layers of safety. It's a common principle. Hating safeties is like hating seat belts because an air bag will deploy in the event of a crash. Safety in layers. Heck, the four rules are built around the concept. For anything truly disastrous to happen you would have to break at least two rules. Sure, you may put a whole in your wall or tick someone off by muzzle sweeping him but it's breaking multiple rules that gets someone killed or injured.

Also, any time you see someone reference safeties as slow or an extra step it is safe to assume that they have not adequately trained with a safety equipped pistol. Unfortunately, those seem to be the ones that are the most outspoken against them. disengaging a safety adds zero time to the draw. Hitting the safety is part of the draw. By the time the muzzle has leveled off the safety is off. With a proper draw the safety is impossible to miss. Yes, I said impossible. It is difficult to explain but it has to do with the thumb position on the draw. The problem is that people who don't know better thing using a safety is a matter of drawing the pistol, fumbling around to find and depress the safety lever and finally getting on target. It isn't a separate step from anything else.

I carry 1911's and XD's. Both benefit from the single action trigger that usually facilitates the presence of a safety. The 1911, with its thumb safety, is no more troublesome to shoot and operate than the XD with only a grip safety. The XD has a particular benefit by only having the grip safety. If I, for some reason, need to handle the XD while it is loaded I can place my thumb on the back of the slide so that the grip safety is still active. Yet it makes off hand drills (simulating an injured strong arm) easier. Drawing with my left hand and hitting a thumb safety is slower than drawing and simply acquiring a firing grip.

Agree with 95%. (My peanut butter is in the 'fridge as I type this)
I have to make a concious effort to NOT click off the safety on my 1911 (New Agent) when I am simply unholserting the weapon. It has become such a natural part of my draw. That said...it's a brain flub waiting to happen...as is ANY time you handle a weapon. It's one of the reasons...okay, actually THE reason I decided to stop carrying a Glock 19 as my CC weapon. I want there to be a two-part process to firing the weapon. If I were in combat or a cop (or open carried), a Glock would be my preferred weapon. But for CC and home defense, *I* prefer to have a two-part firing process. Do I think it's in any way irresponsible to carry a non-safetied weapon? No. Is there an increased risk (which I am not willing to take)? Yep!

Just how natural is it for me to click off the safety during my draw? When going to holster my lil' Colt after a night in the nightstand, I noticed the safety was off. I had clicked it off the night before while disarming. Flame away....but to suggest the safety between your ears is infallable, is to suggest you've never had peanutbutter in the fridge...

 

[thompal]

If the bad guy takes your gun, don't you want your gun to have a safety, so you don't get shot with your own gun

Heck, if the Bad Guy manages to take my gun, I'd hope I was carrying a Glock, so it would have a higher chance of blowing up in his face.

 

[thompal]

The thing is, on pistols with frames were the Builder/Designer had enough insight to put an External Safety in an Ergonomic Position (quite like a 1911) I have NO problems with or using an EFS and see very little problems from its use and position. However, that being said there are LOTS of pistols out there that should have their Builder/Designer flogged due to where they EFS got placed.

Full-size Berettas and Ruger come to mind.

 

[goinggreyfast]

I carry 1911's and XD's. Both benefit from the single action trigger that usually facilitates the presence of a safety. The 1911, with its thumb safety, is no more troublesome to shoot and operate than the XD with only a grip safety. The XD has a particular benefit by only having the grip safety. If I, for some reason, need to handle the XD while it is loaded I can place my thumb on the back of the slide so that the grip safety is still active. Yet it makes off hand drills (simulating an injured strong arm) easier. Drawing with my left hand and hitting a thumb safety is slower than drawing and simply acquiring a firing grip.

I'm partial to my XD for that very reason and handle mine the exact same way, both in and out of the holster. If one is concerned with speed of deployment during altercation, grip safety is a valid consideration.

 

[rhino]

Thank you sir. That's good enough for me.
Now would that same methodology apply in said double actions with the hammer cocked? What about single actions?

On those few double action pistols that will allow the safety to be applied with the hammer cocked (CZ75B, CZ85B, Taurus 92, some Beretta 92 variants, Sphinx, EAA Witness, etc), the safety should be "on" when the holstered gun has the hammer cocked because it is then just like a single action pistol (like a Hi Power or 1911).

 

[cosermann]

24 pages - I can't believe I read the whole thing (so far). My thoughts in summary.

1. Some designs really do seem to need an external safety as part of the system. The 1911 is a good example. (I think/hope we can agree on that?)
2. Some designs really don't seem to need an external safety as part of the system. (I'll use double action revolvers as an example.)
3. Some designs don't, from an engineering perspective, need an external safety as part of the system, and therefore don't have one. (ex. many of the current semiautos).
4. Some designs don't, from an engineering perspective, need an external safety as part of the system. Nonetheless, an external safety is included in the design because many people seem to want one. (ex. S&W M&P autos, which, thankfully make this an option).

Personally, I choose something like #2 or #3 without an external safety for defensive purposes.

Speed has nothing to do with it. If one is familiar with one's equipment and practice, speed isn't a significant issue.

Stress and it's effects is/are my primary reason(s). I prefer no external safety because I know that under stress, I want something as simple and as close to a point and click device as I can get. People sometimes flub safety disengagements. Even seriously trained people sometimes flub safety disengagements. If you've shot much in competition or have watched much shooting competition, you've seen this happen. You know it happens. I just don't want to be one of those people if the situation ever arises. My concern about a disarm is pretty low with CC, and there's the option of trapping my primary and engaging with my BUG.

My perference would likely change if I had to carry openly as part of my job or legal req.

We all assign different probabilities to different events and outcomes and live/work/operate in slightly different environments. What's important is that we each think it through and pick what works best given our circumstances.

 

[Jay]

Just curious.... has anyone changed their opinion on whether or not they prefer an external safety, as a result of this thread?

Not grinding axes, or picking nits... just curious.

My preference remains the same. (for whatever that's worth... not much)

 

[RealTree]

My wife carries an LCP and for any of you who have fired one will know the trigger pull is insanely long. From our experience she feels more comfortable with a super long trigger pull as a safety rather than a manual one. I am trying to convert her to a G26.

She prefers to carry with a round in the chamber, anyone think this is a bad idea with an LCP?

 

[Jack Ryan]

I don't have links, but that's what every instructor with whom I've trained will advocate if you ask and you choose to carry a double action pistola. Sometimes and external safety exists solely because a contact spec required it, then the version that hits the market still has it.

When I've carried my Smith & Wessons, it's always with the hammer decocked and safety off. Same with my Browning BDM when I used to carry it. It was a non-issue when I carried a Sig Sauer P226, because it only had a decocker and no external safety.

It only makes perfect sense.

At that point,decocked & safety off, a double action pistol is functionally little different from a modern double action revolver and most certainly equally sate as a double action revolver with the hammer down.

It's hard for me to "figure" people need an "instructor" to tell them some of this stuff and then they'll actually be giving some one else advice. Some of these arguements have me wondering if the guy making the arguement has even ever held the gun they are argueing about let alone fired it.