external safety hatred syndrome

[OD*]

After all, the 1911 was designed for condition 1 carry....

But it wasn't designed to be carried "cocked & locked", the original design had no thumb safety, it was incorporated later at the behest of the U.S. Calvary.

John Browning's personal weapon.

 

[iChokePeople]

Skipping over the corpse of the dead equine without taking my turn at the stick, the SPEED issue is easy to figure out, for YOU, not for everyone else... and who cares what effect the safety has on everyone else? If you want to know what it does for YOUR times, skip the stopwatch and pull out your handy camcorder. If you have a fairly recent one, HD, decent frame rate (60fps is pretty common), you can get all the detail you want. I've done it, and have helped others do it. I can do it for you or help you do it, if you like. Doing this, you can actually count the frames, and time, for each portion of your reaction, draw, presentation, whatever you want to see. You can isolate or eliminate whatever you choose.

Having done this, I could give you excruciating details about my reaction times, the variances in the time it takes ME to clear from various CC locations/methods (AIWB vs. 4pm IWB vs thigh rig, etc), or about how many frames it takes me from the time I touch my weapon to the time it's horizontal and ready for a retention-type face-to-face shot or how many frames it takes from clearing kydex to firing a shot in various situations (FTF/retention vs. 10 yards, for example...) And I can say with absolute certainty that MY average times in any part of that do not increase for having to thumb the safety. Not even in a FTF/retention type scenario where I would most expect it. And I would submit that if your times ARE affected by it, you need practice, and maybe some coaching, because thumbing the safety should happen in parallel with other actions, not as a separate, serial task. I would also submit that this exercise is worthwhile for ANYONE who wants to improve his/her performance, for all the same reasons it's used in other sports. You may be surprised by the results.

 

[OD*]

And I would submit that if your times ARE affected by it, you need practice, and maybe some coaching, because thumbing the safety should happen in parallel with other actions, not as a separate, serial task. I would also submit that this exercise is worthwhile for ANYONE who wants to improve his/her performance, for all the same reasons it's used in other sports. You may be surprised by the results.

Ditto.

 

[snowman46919]

Have you taken a gun safety class? If you have, ask for your money back. NEVER rely on your safety. You are your best safety. Uncock that thing. If it's speed you are worried about, cocking it is just as fast as clicking the safety over.

I know it has been said, but no your wrong.

Guns aren't dangerous. They just lay there until a human picks 'em up. Then they become dangerous. Proficiency should be common sense for ANY firearm that's going to be a personal protection firearm.

Anyone with common sense [STRIKE]would[/STRIKE] should realize this

You really need to take a training class, carrying unchambered is unwise, IMO

Very true might as well carry a club.

Not really. Cocked and locked with the half cock notch (and especially 80 series with the FB block) totally trumps hammer down resting on the FP if it gets bumped/dropped/whatever.
The more important question here is can you safely get the hammer down?
Personally, I'd rather not. It'd be defeating the purpose of that design, and if you slip ...you get an unintended BANG. No thanks.
There is absolutely no reason to do so.

Sounds about right

Now all this being said about the only safety device on my EDC is the decocking lever that has a firing pin block when it is utilized. One in the pipe 12 in the mag and mag pouch on the other hip. Open carry or concealed that is just how it is for me and how it always will be. If you practice safe carry then having a safety on your firearm is a feel good feature. If you can't carry safely despite how the firearm is manufactured maybe you shouldn't carry

 

[ATF Consumer]

Since some here claim they are just as fast releasing the safety as other not using the safety...and that the safety is released even before it is removed from the holster, I question then...what is the safety doing for you when the trigger is completely covered and cannot discharge the weapon? How is that any more safe than not using the safety while holstered?

 

[Vince49]

Fool proof ?

My personal belief is that the designers and trainers have done all that they are able to design a fool proof system. However no one to date has been able to come up with a D..N FOOL proof system!

 

[snowman46919]

Since some here claim they are just as fast releasing the safety as other not using the safety...and that the safety is released even before it is removed from the holster, I question then...what is the safety doing for you when the trigger is completely covered and cannot discharge the weapon? How is that any more safe than not using the safety while holstered?

many safeties serve as a firing pin block so there can't be an accidental discharge say in the even of a vehicle accident or some other force that would exert enough energy to hit the hammer to exert enough force to ignite the primer.

 

[db1959]

How should one carry a Beretta 92FS? Since the manual safety also functions as a decocker if you carried the 92 it would be cocked and unlocked, which I am not comfortable with. It does have a FP block so could carry it hammer down, safety on, one in the chamber or I could carry it hammer down, safety off, one in the chamber. Which way would be better? The one problem I have with it is the slide mounted safety isnt easy for me to flick off when drawing.

I want to be as safe as possible when I carry.

 

[iChokePeople]

Since some here claim they are just as fast releasing the safety as other not using the safety...and that the safety is released even before it is removed from the holster, I question then...what is the safety doing for you when the trigger is completely covered and cannot discharge the weapon? How is that any more safe than not using the safety while holstered?

Just for clarification, *I* didn't say anything about thumbing the safety while holstered. Maybe someone else did. I don't thumb the safety until the muzzle has cleared and I'm starting to bring it horizontal. To answer your safety question, though -- one really obvious place that safety changes things is reholstering. If you happen to have a deformed holster or a shirttail caught in the holster or that kind of thing and get an accidental/negligent trigger press, a Glock goes bang, an improperly safed 1911 MIGHT go bang, depending on your grip, while a properly-safed 1911 does not. But also, just for clarification, I left the opinion-laden 'safety' issue alone and was only addressing your claims about speed. Not disputing the findings of your... 'study', just saying that your results certainly are not definitive, and maybe your friends need some practice with their 1911s.

On the Beretta, the 'school solution' I was always taught was to decock it, round in chamber. The less-official but common next step is to half-cock the hammer to reduce the trigger pull needed to DA fire the weapon. Disclaimer: I left the military several years back, and that may have changed. I would also suggest that being 'as safe as possible' when you carry can be interpreted in more than one way... Me, I lean toward 'as safe (ready) as possible in the event that I should have to use the weapon', but YMMV.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I agree with not relying on my safety, which is why I never point it at anyone. Besides, I'm asking you why you don't like it, not why I shouldn't like it.

My biggest concern here is gun owners who need some one else to tell them what they should like and why. The view never changes for any one but the lead dog.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Not mine but funny...

-Gary

Awesome. If I had any rep left I'd rep you but I definately owe you. I'm scarfing all of those. LOL

 

[ATF Consumer]

Just for clarification, *I* didn't say anything about thumbing the safety while holstered. Maybe someone else did. I don't thumb the safety until the muzzle has cleared and I'm starting to bring it horizontal. To answer your safety question, though -- one really obvious place that safety changes things is reholstering. If you happen to have a deformed holster or a shirttail caught in the holster or that kind of thing and get an accidental/negligent trigger press, a Glock goes bang while a properly-safed 1911 does not. But also, just for clarification, I left the opinion-laden 'safety' issue alone and was only addressing your claims about speed. Not disputing the findings of your... 'study', just saying that your results certainly are not definitive, and maybe your friends need some practice with their 1911s.

On the Beretta, the 'school solution' I was always taught was to decock it, round in chamber. The less-official but common next step is to half-cock the hammer to reduce the trigger pull needed to DA fire the weapon. Disclaimer: I left the military several years back, and that may have changed. I would also suggest that being 'as safe as possible' when you carry can be interpreted in more than one way... Me, I lean toward 'as safe (ready) as possible in the event that I should have to use the weapon', but YMMV.

If you happen to have a deformed holster or a shirttail caught in the holster or that kind of thing, I'd suggest engaging the safety before you reholster your firearm...once it is securely holstered, unlock and reset the hammer to the ready state.

How should one carry a Beretta 92FS? Since the manual safety also functions as a decocker if you carried the 92 it would be cocked and unlocked, which I am not comfortable with. It does have a FP block so could carry it hammer down, safety on, one in the chamber or I could carry it hammer down, safety off, one in the chamber. Which way would be better? The one problem I have with it is the slide mounted safety isnt easy for me to flick off when drawing.

I want to be as safe as possible when I carry.

I currently EDC a Beretta M9 and you certainly don't want to carry with one in chamber, decocked and unlocked. Condition 2 is never recommended.
If the hammer is knocked or bumped into, can possibly lead to ND. This has been claimed, but I have yet to test at the range, but logic does indicate it can occur.
I have yet to read a single report or article of a ND due to carrying in Condition 0.

 

[ATF Consumer]

 

[Jack Ryan]

By the time any one else needs to concern themselves with mine it's going to be condition -1 and it will be cocked, locked, and ready to rock again while I'm standing over them.

 

[jeremy]

For me the reason I dislike Safeties on a Pistol is due to the fact it is just another point to Fail on a very complicated Machine...

How should one carry a Beretta 92FS? Since the manual safety also functions as a decocker if you carried the 92 it would be cocked and unlocked, which I am not comfortable with. It does have a FP block so could carry it hammer down, safety on, one in the chamber or I could carry it hammer down, safety off, one in the chamber. Which way would be better? The one problem I have with it is the slide mounted safety isnt easy for me to flick off when drawing.

I want to be as safe as possible when I carry.

Ohhhh...

You mean the Decocker that acts like a Manual Safety that everybody calls the Safety...

I currently EDC a Beretta M9 and you certainly don't want to carry with one in chamber, decocked and unlocked. Condition 2 is never recommended.
If the hammer is knocked or bumped into, can possibly lead to ND. This has been claimed, but I have yet to test at the range, but logic does indicate it can occur.
I have yet to read a single report or article of a ND due to carrying in Condition 0.

I have Personally carried one for Hundreds of Hours if not Thousands of Hours in Condition 2 without ever having this happen.

 

[ATF Consumer]

I have Personally carried one for Hundreds of Hours if not Thousands of Hours in Condition 2 without ever having this happen.

Yep...I'd like to test this at the range...tap the back of the hammer while pointing down range. How much force is required to get it to fire?
I'm sure various models will result differently.

What advantage is there to carry in condition 2 over 0? It seems to me it is actually a disadvantage, as you are required to use the full pull of the trigger, drawing back the hammer in the process, rather than having a shorter pull, releasing the already cocked hammer.

 

[jayhawk]

What's all this talk about guns with hammers and manual safeties? They still make those?

 

[LAZY DOG]

personaly i dont like a saftey you cant visouly see i have always thought internal saftey was a bad idea ,when you look at the human factor of (if its man made it can break).I like the option of seeing if my safety is in good working condition and a 1911 grip safety is pretty straight forward.

 

[snowman46919]

personaly i dont like a saftey you cant visouly see i have always thought internal saftey was a bad idea ,when you look at the human factor of (if its man made it can break).I like the option of seeing if my safety is in good working condition and a 1911 grip safety is pretty straight forward.

This one doesn't make a whole lot of sense because technically all you can see is the button or the grip, you can't actually see it disconnecting or engaging. Anything mechanical can and will fail, less amount of moving parts means less that can break. That is why the 1911 is such a popular style that many have based their designs after. IMO fewest amount of parts that gets the job done is the best design.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

We carried the Beretta 92FS when I was in the Coast Guard. After I got out they switched to DAO Sigs. I got accustomed to carrying and qualifying with the hammer down, first shot DA all other shots SA. I carried a Xd for a couple of years, but then switched to a FNP, for the reason of it having a hammer, and the ability to decock the hammer. To me, a hammer is more consistent then a striker. I do not even notice the transition from DA to SA anymore, I have become accustomed to it. Yes, I do hate external safeties. Training or not, when the adrenaline dumps, what if you forget to disengage the safety? I want to draw ready to defend myself, not pull the trigger and no bang, because I forgot the disengage the safety. It's personal preference.