Gillette: Men Are Toxic

[GIJEW]

Wow! Now we need to ask ourselves how any of us turned out socially acceptable. Wait a minute, we own guns, that means none of us are socially acceptable.

They need to actually look at what they are pushing rather than scanning for a social buzz.

It would seem by their presentation there is only "a" man out of the masses who is accountable and the rest of us are either lazy, derelict and/or ignorant.

The last thing we need is more "us v them" being dumped into the current environment. So what is the motto for this film supposed to be? "Men: guilty until proven innocent"?

It would now appear that every aspect of our lives are to be demoted to the lowest common denominator for stereotyping and we are to go through life on our bellies begging for forgiveness.

"Land of the free and home of the brave" is not only no longer true but apparently something all men, and those who came before us, need to apologize for.

When the world demands for all men to sit around drinking pregnant mare urine, knitting rainbow sweaters and turning our weapons into wind chimes...


Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating doing the negative things portrayed in the film. I am saying I am tired of being told that the freedoms I fought for, like so many here, should no longer apply to me because the ones who freely received those same freedoms decides to "vote me off the island" because I possess the very attributes they required of me to defend THEIR freedom.

If they do not possess the mental ability to tell "good" from "bad" then just leave it alone or trust someone who can. Don't try to tell me that because I shave I am somehow ruining your utopia...

^^^THIS^^^ Gillette has become another dull SJW conflating "toxic masculinity" with "masculine masculinity".

As for me, I have a beard. They can go step off.....something steep

 

[Beowulf]

Waiting on another company to expose toxic gun ownership. Enough is enough.

This isn't some benign "calling out" of bad behavior. There is an agenda at play. Too bad some are too busy virtue signalling to see that.

Fair enough, if you believe that.

What's the agenda?

 

[HoughMade]

Are you sure about that? I obviously don't know you or anything about you, but you are telling me that in your entire life, you didn't see lots of examples of these types of behaviors, when you were in school, or in college, at work, or just out and about going about your day?

Because I know I have and I grew up right here in the midwest. I know what I saw in high school in the suburbs of Cincinnati, what I saw when I was at Purdue, what I've seen around Indy, and what my fiancee tells me about the students she works with at IU.

Did I ever see people behaving badly? Sure. About 1%. In my 47 years, college, Army, car sales, more college, 20+ years of law practice- I have never seen a woman cat-called, harassed, groped or treated unfairly on the job. Not once.

Bullying? In elementary school? Sure, but nothing anyone would ever call serious and no one ever got a beating. People made fun of me and I felt bad. Guess what, it hurt at the time and has made me a better, less delicate person.

Out of earshot of women commenting on their attributes? Sure....but who cares? That's not bad behavior. It's perfectly normal and not harmful.

 

[Beowulf]

Did I ever see people behaving badly? Sure. About 1%. In my 47 years, college, Army, car sales, more college, 20+ years of law practice- I have never seen a woman cat-called, harassed, groped or treated unfairly on the job. Not once.

Bullying? In elementary school? Sure, but nothing anyone would ever call serious and no one ever got a beating. People made fun of me and I felt bad. Guess what, it hurt at the time and has made me a better, less delicate person.

Out of earshot of women commenting on their attributes? Sure....but who cares? That's not bad behavior. It's perfectly normal and not harmful.

Then you grew up in Mayberry, I guess, because that's not been my experience at all... and I grew up on the mean streets of Montgomery, OH (one of the many middle class suburbs outside of Cincinnati... it was a lot like Carmel).

But then again, maybe it's the suburbs that are the rough spots. I mean, it was only a few years back that a bunch of seniors at Carmel High were arrested for "hazing" Freshmen basketball players under tacit approval by the coaches, which culminated in sodomizing them (the freshmen, not the coaches... though the coaches might have deserved it).

 

[BugI02]

I just watched the video and I read the comments.

I guess I'm confused. Either most of you guys haven't watched the video or you don't actually mean what you say. I know a lot of you get triggered by any new speak, like toxic masculinity, but if you watched the video, you can see what behaviors they were advocating. In the video, we see:

Bad:
- Pack of larger kids chases down and bullying a younger kid
- A kid receiving so-called "cyber-bullying" by being texted hateful things
- Several examples of men groping women or wolf-whistling/cat calling, while other guys laughed
- Older CEO/Boardroom type guy belittling the contribution of the one female employee
- Two kids beating the ever living snot out of each other, while negligent dads barbecue

Good:

- Guy calls out frat-type guys at a pool party for groping at women
- Older guy stepping in between two teenagers who were about to fight and getting them to shake hands
- Friend calls out his buddy for cat-calling a woman on the street
- One of the aforementioned barbequeuing dads stops the two kids from beating each other
- Onlooker stops the pack of kids from hurting the smaller one

So, from those examples, here is what I'm seeing in the ad as being promoted as positive masculinity:

1. Standing up for others, particularly those who are weaker
2. Respecting women, both on the street and as co-workers
3. Teaching children that the first recourse to a dispute isn't violence

What I don't see:

1. P*ssy Hats
2. Anything to do with voting Democrat
3. Anything to do with Socialism
4. Anything to do with weakening the status of men.

I don't see anything advocated there that you wouldn't see being taught for decades in the Boy Scouts, or in Church groups, etc. In fact, I bet I could travel back in time, to the heyday of manly men (you know, the 1950's) and give them the points of above, and they would absolutely agree with them (except maybe respecting women as co-workers, as that's a bit more modern).

So what are you all *****ing and moaning about? Cause if you can honestly say you haven't seen the bad behaviors the video is calling out going on around you, you are either living an extremely sheltered existence, or you are lying and are probably part of the problem.

I mean, when a guy running for President can brag on an open mic about how he can get any woman he wants and just grab them by the genitalia, who has had numerous affairs (including ones with huge payoffs) can get elected President, it would seem to me that a good chunk of our country tacitly condones that type of behavior. And it's not like that's new by any means. Look at Clinton, who was an accused rapist and certainly a sexual harasser. Or how many senators and reps get caught doing similar things.

And people are getting upset that Gillette made a video about toxic masculinity? Jeez.

Anyone who thinks the behaviors you list as being called out by Gillette are indicative of masculinity cannot differentiate between that term and machismo. Anyone who thinks we should welcome being lectured on the same for the lofty purpose of marketing has lost touch with reality

Without further evidence to the contrary, I might question whether you can differentiate between chivalry and chauvinism, too

 

[chezuki]

I got him. I agree with Beowulf 100%.

I got him too. I’m gonna lose my ingo dogpile card, but I saw nothing wrong with the video.

 

[Beowulf]

Anyone who thinks the behaviors you list as being called out by Gillette are indicative of masculinity cannot differentiate between that term and machismo. Anyone who thinks we should welcome being lectured on the same for the lofty purpose of marketing has lost touch with reality

Without further evidence to the contrary, I might question whether you can differentiate between chivalry and chauvinism, too

I didn't say the bad behaviors were indicative of masculinity, nor did Gillette. What you call machismo or chauvinism is encompassed in the term "toxic masculinity". Masculinity is not bad and no one is calling it bad (outside of maybe some extremely crazy ultra-3rd wave feminists, I suppose).

But if the phrase "toxic masculinity" triggers you (there certainly seems like there are a lot of touchy guys in this thread) then call it "machismo" or "bro culture" or whatever term you are comfortable with. We all know what it is and we all have seen it. And separated from any political connotation, I would think we all mostly agree it is a bad thing.

Now, if you want to call out Gillette for a cynical appeal to pathos to sell more razor blades, that's fair.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Did I ever see people behaving badly? Sure. About 1%. In my 47 years, college, Army, car sales, more college, 20+ years of law practice- I have never seen a woman cat-called, harassed, groped or treated unfairly on the job. Not once.

Bullying? In elementary school? Sure, but nothing anyone would ever call serious and no one ever got a beating. People made fun of me and I felt bad. Guess what, it hurt at the time and has made me a better, less delicate person.

Out of earshot of women commenting on their attributes? Sure....but who cares? That's not bad behavior. It's perfectly normal and not harmful.

You've obviously kept better company than I throughout the years.

 

[BugI02]

Fair enough, if you believe that.

What's the agenda?

"That you, erudite buyer of Gilette products, are not like those other Troglodytes (non-woke men) who we both know behave like this. Thus you can proudly buy Gilette products knowing that we're as woke as you are! Feel good about yourself, you've got it going on!"

Possibly a lukewarm appeal to the participation trophy generation, a condescending hatchet job to everyone else

 

[Beowulf]

"That you, erudite buyer of Gilette products, are not like those other Troglodytes (non-woke men) who we both know behave like this. Thus you can proudly buy Gilette products knowing that we're as woke as you are! Feel good about yourself, you've got it going on!"

Possibly a lukewarm appeal to the participation trophy generation, a condescending hatchet job to everyone else

I agree with you on the advertising angle. It's pretty obvious.

But I don't think that's what Route 45 meant when he referred to the agenda.

 

[printcraft]

What's the agenda?

Men are inherently bad. The cause of all the worlds problems.

You haven't seen this being played out in the media and academia over the last few years?
The rise of "beta" males? Pajama boy?
Hell, "the last jedi" was a men suck **** fest and it was SPECIFICALLY put in there by kathleen kennedy who is running Starwars (into the ground) for Disney.

There is an agenda behind all of this activity.

 

[BugI02]

I didn't say the bad behaviors were indicative of masculinity, nor did Gillette. What you call machismo or chauvinism is encompassed in the term "toxic masculinity". Masculinity is not bad and no one is calling it bad (outside of maybe some extremely crazy ultra-3rd wave feminists, I suppose).

But if the phrase "toxic masculinity" triggers you (there certainly seems like there are a lot of touchy guys in this thread) then call it "machismo" or "bro culture" or whatever term you are comfortable with. We all know what it is and we all have seen it. And separated from any political connotation, I would think we all mostly agree it is a bad thing.

Now, if you want to call out Gillette for a cynical appeal to pathos to sell more razor blades, that's fair.

Actually, you might get me to re-examine my viewpoint. I must confess, I had never considered that the screeds against 'toxic masculinity' might be referring to a subset of all masculinity. I took it as a blanket indictment of masculinity because of the source of much of the use of the term. My re-consideration , though, will depend on finding a more broad-based recognition (beyond someone trying to sell a product) that there are aspects of masculinity (as I understand the term) that are not 'toxic'

 

[BugI02]

Men are inherently bad. The cause of all the worlds problems.

You haven't seen this being played out in the media and academia over the last few years?
The rise of "beta" males? Pajama boy?
Hell, "the last jedi" was a men suck **** fest and it was SPECIFICALLY put in there by kathleen kennedy who is running Starwars (into the ground) for Disney.

There is an agenda behind all of this activity.

Well, that agenda is simply to kick men off the hilltop so [strike] women [/strike] [strike] womyn [/strike] the other sex (for us Troglodytes who believe gender is binary) can take their place. They see what they think is a path to power and they wish to take said path

 

[Beowulf]

Actually, you might get me to re-examine my viewpoint. I must confess, I had never considered that the screeds against 'toxic masculinity' might be referring to a subset of all masculinity. I took it as a blanket indictment of masculinity because of the source of much of the use of the term. My re-consideration , though, will depend on finding a more broad-based recognition (beyond someone trying to sell a product) that there are aspects of masculinity (as I understand the term) that are not 'toxic'

I think it's worth looking at the origin of the ideas and deciding for yourself. People are quick to latch on to terms from psychiatry and other fields and then ascribe other meanings to them, which may not reflect the actual ideas and research that originated the term.

From the Wikipedia article (and of course, Wikipedia is really just a starting place, as it is a curated data source, so it can have biases inserted by whoever last updated the article):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_masculinity#Toxic_masculinity

Terry Kupers defines toxic masculinity as "the constellation of socially regressive male traits that serve to foster domination, the devaluation of women, homophobia and wanton violence".[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][70][/SUP] According to Kupers, toxic masculinity serves to outline aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, "such as misogyny, homophobia, greed, and violent domination". These traits are contrasted with more positive aspects of hegemonic masculinity such as "pride in [one's] ability to win at sports, to maintain solidarity with a friend, to succeed at work, or to provide for [one's] family".[SUP][4][/SUP]
Toxic masculine norms are a feature of life for men in American prisons, where they are reflected in the behaviour of both staff and inmates. The qualities of extreme self-reliance, domination of other men through violence, and avoiding the appearance of either femininityor weakness, comprise an unspoken code among prisoners.[SUP][71][/SUP][SUP][72][/SUP] Suppressing vulnerable emotions is often adopted in order to successfully cope with the harsh conditions of prison life, defined by punishment, social isolation, and aggression. These factors likely play a role in suicide among male prisoners.[SUP][71][/SUP][SUP][73][/SUP]
Bullying of boys by their peers and domestic violence experienced by boys at home can also be expressions of toxic masculinity.[SUP][74][/SUP] The often violent socialization of boys produces psychological trauma through the promotion of aggression and lack of intimate relations with others. Such trauma is often disregarded, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying.[SUP][75][/SUP]

 

[JeepHammer]

Well, here comes 40 posts of people trying to cover there butts by attacking and ranting...

Actual, fully developed (mentally) MEN aren't the problem and never were.

A MAN doesn't go looking for trouble, a MAN doesn't put his hands on ANYONE, man or woman, unless it's invited (or he's FORCED to defend himself).

A MAN minds his own affairs, takes care of his own family, has empathy for those less fortunate.

It's two things that created the current situation, which I happen to agree there actually IS a situation and it's out of hand...

During the industral revloution to current times, FATHERS & MALE role models left the home to work in factories in increasing numbers, leaving boys to raise themselves...
Now it's both fathers & mothers leaving these kids to raise themselves on the streets, the 'Lord Of The Flies' finishing schools...

When enough of these males (NOT MEN) reach critical mass, they condone, tolerate & even encourage each other's actions...
And that is where the current problem came from, complete sense of entitlement to do or say whatever they want, no matter how much the offend or hurt someone else...

This USED to be kept in check for centuries by the 'Dual Of Honor', someone stepped too far over the line and they wound up facing a sword or pistol.
You father or other male around would clean your plow when you popped off to an adult, became a bully,
And before the industral revloution there was ALWAYS a family member or other full grown man around...

It wasn't a 'Thumbs Up, or Thumbs Down', the 'Instant Feedback' was a bloody nose or crack in the head, seat of pants warmed to the point you couldn't sit down... That's a lesson that sticks with you...

Now we have about 4 generations of disrespectful, over aged adolescents with an absloute sense of entitlement to do the same crap to everyone they learned in Junior high and have never changed, still stuck in that mindset, never developing higher brain function, still seeing how much they can push the limits before someone breaks their jaw...

There is no EASY answer, when mental midgets raise children, they are going to screw the children up, fact of life...
And since they are NEVER corrected, never taught to walk in someone else's shoes, they don't even think about how they screwed up and try to correct themselves or children.

There is a reason I live 17 miles from town, and 70 miles from a city, I have issues with the way the savages raise their children.
Adult over aged adolescents or their offspring, I just don't care to be in regular contact with them...
The farmers, and farm kids I do run into regularly are not NEARLY the bunch of idiots I see everywhere else, most farmers being raised on a farm, and having to earn an education to keep a farm profitable these days,
And the fact they grew up with real adults always present, they produce thinking, fully functioning offspring...

I get them every year, cutting or mashing down fences, driving through fields, cutting down trees, tearing up farm equipment, and it's always the same thing, bored city kids screwing up things on my farm, or idiot half-adults hunting on my land or tearing through my land in/on 4x4 vehicles...
Always cussing, arguing, threatening when they get thrown off the property THEY DON'T OWN, and weren't invited to, no matter how many 'No Trespassing, No Hunting, No Fishing' signs you put up or how many times you run the same idiots...

-------------

It's fairly common, I have a checklist I follow it's happened so many times...
I make sure the dash camera is working and can see the contact,
I approach the offenders, inform them they are trespassing on posted ground,
I wait for the arguments/threats,

Since I've been threatened with physical violence, I call county sheriff, and I carry my rifle across my chest, muzzle up.

I inform them again they are trespassing.
This is often where the idiots actually ASK for me to shoot them!
I wait for the sheriff.

I have them served with a No Trespassing order, the sheriff having ID'ed them, and I sue in small claims court for any damages they did...
I've had claims reduced, but never lost in small claims.
Kind of drives the point home just in case the sheriff didn't get through to them...

In town, the only 'Comeback' I use when some idiot goes off on a profanity laden rant is, "Your mother would be so proud right now"....

You cant really do much about the random bullies/punks unless they put their hands on you AND YOU CAN PROVE IT IN COURT.
Proving ANYTHING conclusively in court is nearly impossible... Too may shyster lawyer that will take up personal injury claims for scumbags, and that will bleed you dry trying to defend against.

I don't wear a body cam everywhere (or anywhere for that matter, just the windshield cam) so most times I just try and remove myself from the situation...
I'm old and beat up, so my best option is just to cripple or kill the idiot straight off, and that doesn't look good if you don't try and retreat before being attacked.

I don't look out of place, farmers often carry tools, like a ball-peen hammer, there is even tool pockets and a hammer loop on many of my pants, and punks don't seem to understand how much damage, and how fast that hammer will destroy a skull, ball & socket joint, collar bone, etc...
Just food for thought if you are in my situation.

It's not my job to make YOUR mentally stunted children grow up, and everytime you defend/rationalize something stupid they did with there equally mentally stunted friends, you are making the situation 10 times worse...
YOUR KID IS NOT 'SPECIAL', HE ISN'T AN ANGLE, HE WASN'T 'JUST STANDING THERE' WHEN HIS IDIOT FRIENDS DID SOMETHING STUPID/ILLEGAL.

How do I know? Because YOU were never an innocent that just happened to stumble into something stupid/illegal, neither was I...
It's human nature, and it's adolescent human nature to go along with the idiots,
What one doesn't think of, the next one will, and the third one will do, no matter how stupid...

So go ahead and blame women or whoever for the backlash, be part of the problem instead of raising your kids, or reviewing your own life and identifying your mistakes so you don't pass them along...
Its your life, or your kids' life you are screwing up, just don't blame anyone else but yourself...
But then again, I'm sure you wont take blame or try to make amends to the injured parties or teach your kids NOT to be a pain, that would require you to admit fault....

MEN ADMIT FAULT, FIX THE PROBLEM.
Mentally stunted admit nothing, deny everything, make country accusations...

.....Let the excuses & counter accusations begin!...

 

[BugI02]

You lost me

Too many SJW buzzwords. These days misogyny seems to disagreeing in any way with a woman about pretty much anything, homophobia seems to be preferring not to approve of a same sex lifestyle regardless of the reason, greed seems to be descriptive of wanting to keep the fruits of my labors rather than share it with everyone rather than just those I personally choose as worthy of charity, and violent domination is extended to cover any willingness to defend myself and mine from attack up to any level including physical and/or lethal force

The attempt to make the relativist jump to prison behavior cements my estimation. Prison is not a microcosm of the real world, it is its own seperate world as far as I can tell. I don't think it is any more relevant to men on the outside than the code of Sparta would be. As does the reflexive condemnation of stoicism and the stiff upper lip

It leads me to wonder why men who eschew this modern, pastel version of what it means to be a man haven't all become Sardaukar

 

[Beowulf]

You lost me

Too many SJW buzzwords. These days misogyny seems to disagreeing in any way with a woman about pretty much anything, homophobia seems to be preferring not to approve of a same sex lifestyle regardless of the reason, greed seems to be descriptive of wanting to keep the fruits of my labors rather than share it with everyone rather than just those I personally choose as worthy of charity, and violent domination is extended to cover any willingness to defend myself and mine from attack up to any level including physical and/or lethal force

The attempt to make the relativist jump to prison behavior cements my estimation. Prison is not a microcosm of the real world, it is its own seperate world as far as I can tell. I don't think it is any more relevant to men on the outside than the code of Sparta would be. As does the reflexive condemnation of stoicism and the stiff upper lip

It leads me to wonder why men who eschew this modern, pastel version of what it means to be a man haven't all become Sardaukar

As opposed to Fremen?

But, anyway, I think you might be deliberately being obtuse. Misogyny could be disagreeing in any way with a woman, or it could be groping, catcalling, and rape. Homophobia could be preferring not to approve of their lifestyle, or it could be physically attacking someone because they perceive the victim to be effeminate in some way. Greed could be wanting to keep the fruits of your labors, or it could be actively attempting to deny the opportunity of others to succeed as you did while pretending you had no assistance getting to where you (again, see our President), and violent domination could be simply defending yourself and your family, or it could be using physical intimidation to get your way from those around you (something just a common in the school yard as it is in the board room these days).

Since we live in an age of Brock Turner, Bill Cosby, Donald Trump/Bill Clinton and numerous others, I don't see much evidence that the people complaining about toxic masculinity are making things up or getting histrionic over nothing.

And yes, there are moronic SJWs out there, getting offended over ridiculous things. Of course, there seem to be plenty of "Conservative" snowflakes who cry just as hard over the hint of getting called out. So, there are whiners everywhere. That doesn't change the real problems we are dealing with.

 

[Route 45]

You've obviously kept better company than I throughout the years.

You can tell a lot about a person by the company they keep.

 

[Route 45]

That doesn't change the real problems we are dealing with.

What problems? That men sometimes behave badly? Sorry if you have to deal with that. Again, the company you keep. The people I associate with don't catcall, grope, rape, etc.

 

[Beowulf]

What problems? That men sometimes behave badly? Sorry if you have to deal with that. Again, the company you keep. The people I associate with don't catcall, grope, rape, etc.

Well, then problem solved. Clearly, we have no issues and we can all go home.

What?

What does who you personally hang out with have to do with all of our society? Also, I hate to break it to you, if you live in Indy, you are surrounded by a million or more people who you also don't normally hang out with. I don't know if you are married or if you have daughters, but what's your answer to them for how they are treated? Tough luck? Sorry honey, you shouldn't have had the audacity to go outside, but since you did, you got what you deserved?

I guess, I'm not really sure what you are getting at there. Are you really afraid that there is a secret (or not so secret) cabal out there to ruin men, and all the women (and other men) who have to bear the brunt of this bad behavior are just making it up? Do you want to go down to the Julian Center downtown and tell all the women there that they are liars and are just making up stories about how their husbands and boyfriends have beaten and abused them and their children? Why don't you ask all the police officers on the forum what they see on a daily basis. What kind of milk of human kindness they run into regularly.

If you are asking me to pat you on the back for not engaging in these behaviors or not hanging around those who do... I guess I can. I would just consider it being a decent human being, but if you need an attaboy to keep that up, then you got it.