Gillette: Men Are Toxic

[cosermann]

This (the latest "toxic masculinity" push) is all wrapped up with the radical left, identity politics, feminism, the war on men, etc. It's a huge black hole to delve into.

 

[JeepHammer]

You can tell a lot about a person by the company they keep.

That's why my circle of friends is small, mostly ex-military or farmers that pay their bills & live up to their word.

Funny, fully adult MEN stay married longer, keep jobs longer, help out when needed, etc.

While the aged out 'Bad Boy' has a string of ex-wires, kids he won't support, can't keep a job, never got an education (Formal or OJT education) in any specific field, is complaining constantly about how unfairly he gets treated and is generally useless/failure on all counts...

Now, this doesn't specifically mean he's broke trailer park/welfare trash, there are a bunch of useless kids from wealthy parents,
The SOB at work (Son Of Boss), utterly useless, in the way most of the time, but not welfare trash because no matter how useless or how bad he screwed up, the family won't fire him...

It's even worse when they played sports in highschool...
The 'Glory Days' jock is the MOST self entitled idiot of the bunch!
Nothing like a brat that peaked in highschool and never budged an inch forward from graduation on...
I'd rather shoot nails into my head than listen to those stories.

 

[BugI02]

As opposed to Fremen?

But, anyway, I think you might be deliberately being obtuse. Misogyny could be disagreeing in any way with a woman, or it could be groping, catcalling, and rape. Homophobia could be preferring not to approve of their lifestyle, or it could be physically attacking someone because they perceive the victim to be effeminate in some way. Greed could be wanting to keep the fruits of your labors, or it could be actively attempting to deny the opportunity of others to succeed as you did while pretending you had no assistance getting to where you (again, see our President), and violent domination could be simply defending yourself and your family, or it could be using physical intimidation to get your way from those around you (something just a common in the school yard as it is in the board room these days).

Since we live in an age of Brock Turner, Bill Cosby, Donald Trump/Bill Clinton and numerous others, I don't see much evidence that the people complaining about toxic masculinity are making things up or getting histrionic over nothing.

And yes, there are moronic SJWs out there, getting offended over ridiculous things. Of course, there seem to be plenty of "Conservative" snowflakes who cry just as hard over the hint of getting called out. So, there are whiners everywhere. That doesn't change the real problems we are dealing with.

Though you are free to doubt me, I am not doing this just to be obtuse. I have to wonder why the 'meaning' of terms such a misogyny and homophobia (itself internally a problem, as a phobia is an irrational fear) is allowed to be so over broad, fluid and sloppily defined. Does that not contribute to the misuse of the descriptors to make behaviors that are merely objectionable to SJWs seem to be some sort of social crime against all humanity? It all seems of a piece with the blurring of the meaning of such formerly concise words as Racist, Fascist, Nazi etc etc to be applicable to a much larger range of behaviors that do not toe the party line, to elevate them from possibly objectionable (depending upon present company) flaw to Nurembergian horrificness

It is hyperbole and a form of negative branding, an attempt to compel a certain pre-approved viewpoint from the citizenry at large. And to include Trump's name in the company of the likes of Cosby and Clinton is to allow sufficient leeway for me to include Dammer as a representative example of a homosexual. You make my case

 

[Route 45]

Well, then problem solved. Clearly, we have no issues and we can all go home.

What?

What does who you personally hang out with have to do with all of our society? Also, I hate to break it to you, if you live in Indy, you are surrounded by a million or more people who you also don't normally hang out with. I don't know if you are married or if you have daughters, but what's your answer to them for how they are treated? Tough luck? Sorry honey, you shouldn't have had the audacity to go outside, but since you did, you got what you deserved?

I guess, I'm not really sure what you are getting at there. Are you really afraid that there is a secret (or not so secret) cabal out there to ruin men, and all the women (and other men) who have to bear the brunt of this bad behavior are just making it up? Do you want to go down to the Julian Center downtown and tell all the women there that they are liars and are just making up stories about how their husbands and boyfriends have beaten and abused them and their children? Why don't you ask all the police officers on the forum what they see on a daily basis. What kind of milk of human kindness they run into regularly.

If you are asking me to pat you on the back for not engaging in these behaviors or not hanging around those who do... I guess I can. I would just consider it being a decent human being, but if you need an attaboy to keep that up, then you got it.

First of all, I am one of the police officers (retired) on the forum, so you can keep your smarmy righteousness to yourself. Unless you also have experience in the field, I've seen things that would probably make you wet yourself and rock back and forth in a corner sucking your thumb. Call me when you've stepped over a child lying on the floor with a bullet hole in their head at a crime scene.

If you don't know anything about radical feminism and its insidious agenda, do your own research. This Gillette ad isn't attacking a problem, it's attacking an entire gender based on the actions of a few. Kinda like when gun owners get attacked after a school shooting. Did you miss the part about "boys will be boys?" It plainly promotes the idea that all men are like this, and we need our betters (SJWs) to correct us from our Neanderthal behavior. Is anyone really responding to domestic violence and rape with "boys will be boys?" Give me a ****ing break.

 

[Beowulf]

Though you are free to doubt me, I am not doing this just to be obtuse. I have to wonder why the 'meaning' of terms such a misogyny and homophobia (itself internally a problem, as a phobia is an irrational fear) is allowed to be so over broad, fluid and sloppily defined. Does that not contribute to the misuse of the descriptors to make behaviors that are merely objectionable to SJWs seem to be some sort of social crime against all humanity? It all seems of a piece with the blurring of the meaning of such formerly concise words as Racist, Fascist, Nazi etc etc to be applicable to a much larger range of behaviors that do not toe the party line, to elevate them from possibly objectionable (depending upon present company) flaw to Nurembergian horrificness

It is hyperbole and a form of negative branding, an attempt to compel a certain pre-approved viewpoint from the citizenry at large. And to include Trump's name in the company of the likes of Cosby and Clinton is to allow sufficient leeway for me to include Dammer as a representative example of a homosexual. You make my case

If you think Donald Trump is a good role model for male behavior (particularly toward women), then I need to make a note to keep any women I care about away from you and your sons.

Anyway, feel free to disregard any of these terms entirely. But if you can agree that the specific behaviors called out in this razor commercial are bad (bullying the weak, groping/cat calling, otherwise treating women with disrespect) and you are willing to call out other men who engage in them, regardless of whether they are family, your best friend, or your hated political foe, then you are doing the right thing and providing a role model for younger men to follow. It doesn't matter whether you call it "fighting toxic masculinity" or whether you call it "chivalry" or just plain "being a good man".

I honestly don't know what's so contentious about this topic.

Have we gone so far done the political rabbit hole that we will refuse to call out behavior we know is wrong if the person doing it is from our "team"? I ask that rhetorically, since I know the answer is "yes". I knew that the moment I saw National Organization for Women defend an accused rapist, Bill Clinton, because he was a Democrat. And since I see Republicans excusing just plain awful behavior from Trump for the same reason, I know nothing has changed since then. But hey, boys will be boys, and it's just locker room talk.

Thank God I don't have a daughter (yet)

 

[mmpsteve]

WHITE Men are inherently bad. The cause of all the worlds problems.

There is an agenda behind all of this activity.

FTFY

p.s.: If bad behavior is only practiced by a relatively small subset of males, why the term toxic-masculinity? Why not call it toxic-ass-hole-edness, which could then be shared with the various toxic females which we've all seen during our lives? I'm all for inclusiveness, where it's warranted.

.

 

[JeepHammer]

This (the latest "toxic masculinity" push) is all wrapped up with the radical left, identity politics, feminism, the war on men, etc. It's a huge black hole to delve into.

Not to PO you off, but it's systemic, not radical left or radical right...

My mother, sisters, wife all got WAY more unwanted attention from guys that wouldn't keep their hands to themselves, or got fired because they wouldn't sleep with the boss.

You don't seem to be able to identify the NON-political people that have come forward in the 'Me Too Movement' with ZERO to gain...

---------

And don't let your political or religious beliefs get in the way of correct ideas or actions...
The VAST majority of the country is in the middle, not far/radical left or right.

Just because I don't agree with Trump or some particular idea going around doesn't mean I'm going to spread false, non-fact checked information, pass along stupid memes intended to inflame the situation,
And I'm certainly NOT going to suddenly sitch to the alt.right or lunatic left just because someone lumps me in what either particular group...

All that does is discount anything and everything the insulting party has to say entirely and forever.
If you can't rationally sit down and discuss something calmly, then your thought patterns don't lend themselves to rational, detached observation, and therefore anything that comes from you is hyper suspect & dismissed.

A meme or bumper sticker is a strong expression from a weak mind.

Calling names and lumping everyone that disagrees with you, or wants to debate the issue to gain FACTS as well as viewpoint is a strong, organized mind, and that strong mind will dismiss you entirely because you don't/can't produce provable facts and carry on an intelligent conversation...

Center is good, center can lean either way as facts & circumstances change.
Far off to either side is locked in a brakes before reaching center, or in the case of a democratic government, compromise.
Remember, if EVERYONE agrees something is a good idea, it's not compromise, it's unamimous, then you just agree on how to get it done.

Now, if you don't like compromise, then you don't like democracy, and you might be happier with ISIS, or in Russia, since a no compromise position is entirely UN-AMERCIAN way of doing things...

 

[Beowulf]

First of all, I am one of the police officers (retired) on the forum, so you can keep your smarmy righteousness to yourself. Unless you also have experience in the field, I've seen things that would probably make you wet yourself and rock back and forth in a corner sucking your thumb. Call me when you've stepped over a child lying on the floor with a bullet hole in their head at a crime scene.

If you don't know anything about radical feminism and its insidious agenda, do your own research. This Gillette ad isn't attacking a problem, it's attacking an entire gender based on the actions of a few. Kinda like when gun owners get attacked after a school shooting. Did you miss the part about "boys will be boys?" It plainly promotes the idea that all men are like this, and we need our betters (SJWs) to correct us from our Neanderthal behavior. Is anyone really responding to domestic violence and rape with "boys will be boys?" Give me a ****ing break.

Yes that never happens... as if that wasn't effectively the entire hinge of the Brock Turner defense. As if that wasn't the attitude of the Carmel High Basketball coaches until the final instance of sexual assault that brought in the police (after a massive public outcry). Look, you stick your head in the sand all you want and hide under your bed because a radical feminist might steal your manhood (both figuratively and literally), but you are just wrong. I don't know how to put it any differently, since you seem pretty fixed in your opinion.

If you can tell me with a straight face you didn't see the consequences of these behaviors and what they lead to, in your time as a police officer, I'm just going to have to assume you must have been right there with HoughMade, patrolling the streets of Mayberry. Or maybe all the violent crimes were all committed by radical feminists on your beat.

 

[Vigilant]

Toxic Masculinity, the new disease that penicillin can’t cure!

 

[JeepHammer]

If you think Donald Trump is a good role model for male behavior (particularly toward women), then I need to make a note to keep any women I care about away from you and your sons.

Anyway, feel free to disregard any of these terms entirely. But if you can agree that the specific behaviors called out in this razor commercial are bad (bullying the weak, groping/cat calling, otherwise treating women with disrespect) and you are willing to call out other men who engage in them, regardless of whether they are family, your best friend, or your hated political foe, then you are doing the right thing and providing a role model for younger men to follow. It doesn't matter whether you call it "fighting toxic masculinity" or whether you call it "chivalry" or just plain "being a good man".

.....

Thank God I don't have a daughter (yet)

I taught my sisters, wife, family friends & mentor girls how to break fingers, gouge/dislocate the larynx & eyeballs, how to use edges weapons, and how to shoot...

Since my wife was quite curvy & attractive well into middle age, shes gouged and sack-smacked more than a few, and I've broke more than a few fingers and jacked more than a few jaws when some screw head couldn't keep his hands or mouth to himself...
---- And how that works is YOU get the bad reputation because there are so many idiots\screw heads out there, and they WILL NOT call the behavior down, it's accepted in their circles, which are ever widening...
It's sexual battery on the woman, but you can easily wind up with battery charges for pulling the screw head off her!

My niece 'Liked Bad Boys' (emphasis on BOYS),
Pregnant at 15, married with baby at 16, divorced at 18.
Two more 'Baby Daddy' kids before she figured it out...
Now, I wanted the guy that knocked her up at 15 arrested, and have his butt on the hook for support, but his parents wouldn't hear of it, her mother wouldn't hear of it, and the state wouldn't take up the case like they should have without someone pushing the issue.

Her daughter (my grand niece) we mostly raised, was nearly top of her highschool class, went to college, is a TSA/Homeland security officer and STILL has to deal with her co-workers/bosses making passes...
She's a tall, natural blond, athletic filled out, with country girl manners,
---- And they take manners for permission, or just don't care.
She also speaks 3 languages, shoots expert with everything she picks up, is on her way to a doctorate, and picked a boyfriend that is as upstanding as she is.

I keep telling her to shoot a couple, the rest will leave her alone, just like coyotes, these idiots run in packs.
Seems that's illegal, and against TSA/Homeland rules...

To this day I will not let a guy manhandle a woman, I can't stay out of it...

 

[DoggyDaddy]

You've obviously kept better company than I throughout the years.

I guess I kept the same type of company. Guess who taught me NOT to engage in the behaviors that Gillette is calling out? Hint: It wasn't a female. It was one of the most "manly" men I've ever known - my dad.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I think it's worth looking at the origin of the ideas and deciding for yourself. People are quick to latch on to terms from psychiatry and other fields and then ascribe other meanings to them, which may not reflect the actual ideas and research that originated the term.

From the Wikipedia article (and of course, Wikipedia is really just a starting place, as it is a curated data source, so it can have biases inserted by whoever last updated the article):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegemonic_masculinity#Toxic_masculinity

Terry Kupers defines toxic masculinity as "the constellation of socially regressive male traits that serve to foster domination, the devaluation of women, homophobia and wanton violence".[SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][70][/SUP] According to Kupers, toxic masculinity serves to outline aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, "such as misogyny, homophobia, greed, and violent domination". These traits are contrasted with more positive aspects of hegemonic masculinity such as "pride in [one's] ability to win at sports, to maintain solidarity with a friend, to succeed at work, or to provide for [one's] family".[SUP][4][/SUP]
Toxic masculine norms are a feature of life for men in American prisons, where they are reflected in the behaviour of both staff and inmates. The qualities of extreme self-reliance, domination of other men through violence, and avoiding the appearance of either femininityor weakness, comprise an unspoken code among prisoners.[SUP][71][/SUP][SUP][72][/SUP] Suppressing vulnerable emotions is often adopted in order to successfully cope with the harsh conditions of prison life, defined by punishment, social isolation, and aggression. These factors likely play a role in suicide among male prisoners.[SUP][71][/SUP][SUP][73][/SUP]
Bullying of boys by their peers and domestic violence experienced by boys at home can also be expressions of toxic masculinity.[SUP][74][/SUP] The often violent socialization of boys produces psychological trauma through the promotion of aggression and lack of intimate relations with others. Such trauma is often disregarded, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying.[SUP][75][/SUP]

Women (some women) are just as guilty in engaging in many of those same behaviors over their fellow women. So will Gillette be coming out with a similar ad for their Venus razors? Girls can be just as, if not more vicious than boys when it comes to bullying and belittling behavior. I await the new Venus ad with bated breath.

 

[HoughMade]

I'm sure if we sit down and have a heart-to-heart with that way, way, way less than 1% (less than .1%) of men who rape or grope, they'll change their ways.

If Gillette wants to help out, maybe they should be be advocating for only having kids after marriage and then that fathers never, ever, leave their kids.

 

[Route 45]

I'm sure if we sit down and have a heart-to-heart with that way, way, way less than 1% (less than .1%) of men who rape or grope, they'll change their ways.

According to some, we are surrounded by millions of them. Boys will be boys. Better make more YouTube ads.

 

[HoughMade]

According to some, we are surrounded by millions of them. Boys will be boys. Better make more YouTube ads.

It just occurred to me that Gillette is probably in possession of marketing research showing that women buy the shaving equipment in a large portion of families.

 

[Beowulf]

I'm sure if we sit down and have a heart-to-heart with that way, way, way less than 1% (less than .1%) of men who rape or grope, they'll change their ways.

If Gillette wants to help out, maybe they should be be advocating for only having kids after marriage and then that fathers never, ever, leave their kids.

Sexual Assault in the United States
https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics

• One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives (a)
• In the U.S., one in three women and one in six men experienced some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime (o)
• 51.1% of female victims of rape reported being raped by an intimate partner and 40.8% by an acquaintance (a)
• 52.4% of male victims report being raped by an acquaintance and 15.1% by a stranger (a)
• Almost half (49.5%) of multiracial women and over 45% of American Indian/Alaska Native women were subjected to some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime (o)
• 91% of victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and nine percent are male (m)
• In eight out of 10 cases of rape, the victim knew the perpetrator (j)
• Eight percent of rapes occur while the victim is at work (c)

Well, if that's true, that .1% (or even that 1%) sure get around. And I'm sure you can quibble with the statistics above, but even if they are off by an order of magnitude, your statement of the number of men out there who are the problem is massively understated.

 

[JeepHammer]

First of all, I am one of the police officers (retired) on the forum, so you can keep your smarmy righteousness to yourself. Unless you also have experience in the field, I've seen things that would probably make you wet yourself and rock back and forth in a corner sucking your thumb. Call me when you've stepped over a child lying on the floor with a bullet hole in their head at a crime scene.

If you don't know anything about radical feminism and its insidious agenda, do your own research. This Gillette ad isn't attacking a problem, it's attacking an entire gender based on the actions of a few. Kinda like when gun owners get attacked after a school shooting. Did you miss the part about "boys will be boys?" It plainly promotes the idea that all men are like this, and we need our betters (SJWs) to correct us from our Neanderthal behavior. Is anyone really responding to domestic violence and rape with "boys will be boys?" Give me a ****ing break.

Wow! Being a 'Police Officer' in the good old USA pretty much trumps the self-righteousness category...
Particually when it comes to the 'Blue Wall' and 'Good Old Boy' clubs in maximum overdrive...

Too bad you didn't get out of the country, where girls get their arms chopped off so they are easier to rape...
Where virgin girls bring a premium so guys with herpies & aids can rape them as a 'Cure'...
Where a woman can be beaten to death for simply speaking or showing her face in public.

The problem is real, the problem is systemic, and it comes from religion AND politics.

While Americans stnad by in 'Christian' self-righteousness indignation and point at OTHER religion or countries they flat, blindly REFUSE to see exactly the same thing right here, with just a little less murder.
No shortage of human trafficking, beatings, rape here, just a little less murder since murder is about the only thing that will get the donut eaters off the barstool...
And if your *Think* that's harsh, why are there 14 MILLION untested rape kits in storage?

These are the woman that actually went to the hospital, filed a complaint, had the rape kit done, just to have law enforcement ignore it for 20-30 years and look for ZERO suspects.

Steal a car and they will look for you, take fingerprints, etc,
Rape someone and even if evidence gets collected, it's not going to get tested...
Cars are worth more important to the law enforcement (and male ego) than a woman getting raped, and that's a fact no one can dispute.

Rape one of mine, and you best turn yourself in, what the cops will do is protect you, for at least a while...

A lot of military units shot child/female traffickers, not saying which or where, but the only reason traffickers didn't get it in the field is because someone didn't want to dig the hole, and you can't leave them laying around...
Police & local military often rode escort in such cases, which just made more holes to dig and a bigger stink because someone would raise can about them...

 

[Beowulf]

Women (some women) are just as guilty in engaging in many of those same behaviors over their fellow women. So will Gillette be coming out with a similar ad for their Venus razors? Girls can be just as, if not more vicious than boys when it comes to bullying and belittling behavior. I await the new Venus ad with bated breath.

Sure. There are absolutely women who engage in massively toxic behavior.

But let me ask you something, do we need to wait until we can call out every single instance of bad behavior before we can address one? That seems to be the argument I'm hearing you make. If we find out a local politician is siphoning public funds into his pocket, should we wait to arrest and prosecute him until we can tackle all government corruption, including some just as bad? I'm curious about the logic behind this.

Either the behavior is bad or it isn't. If you think the behavior is fine, then that's one thing. If you think it is bad, but you don't think anyone should say anything about it unless other bad behavior is called out, then that makes no sense.

 

[Route 45]

If you can tell me with a straight face you didn't see the consequences of these behaviors and what they lead to, in your time as a police officer, I'm just going to have to assume you must have been right there with HoughMade, patrolling the streets of Mayberry. Or maybe all the violent crimes were all committed by radical feminists on your beat.

The majority of violent crime that I saw was not caused by "toxic masculinity," and it definitely wasn't radical feminists. I doubt we'll see a "brave" YouTube video about that anytime soon, though. Not an honest one, at least. Much safer to stick with #menarepigs.

 

[HoughMade]

Sexual Assault in the United States
https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics

• One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives (a)
• In the U.S., one in three women and one in six men experienced some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime (o)
• 51.1% of female victims of rape reported being raped by an intimate partner and 40.8% by an acquaintance (a)
• 52.4% of male victims report being raped by an acquaintance and 15.1% by a stranger (a)
• Almost half (49.5%) of multiracial women and over 45% of American Indian/Alaska Native women were subjected to some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime (o)
• 91% of victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and nine percent are male (m)
• In eight out of 10 cases of rape, the victim knew the perpetrator (j)
• Eight percent of rapes occur while the victim is at work (c)

Well, if that's true, that .1% (or even that 1%) sure get around. And I'm sure you can quibble with the statistics above, but even if they are off by an order of magnitude, your statement of the number of men out there who are the problem is massively understated.

Hook, line and sinker on those stats.