Greenwood man sentenced to prison for firearms dealing

[LarryC]

Well, to me, any transaction where a firearm is sold or traded can be deemed "firearms dealing". Does not matter if it is one time or many, you would still be dealing in firearms. I dont believe an FFL is needed, however I do believe caution and a (nics?) check be done so as not to sell, trade, to a felon. Not sure if its called "nics" or what.

I totally disagree with your statements - as does the ATF. I hold an FFL-03 (collector of Curio and Relics) license and there are laws that allow me to Buy AND SELL firearms. I am not allowed to have access to the Federal background check and so obviously cannot run a check. Well you say I deal in old guns, right? Almost all SKS rifles in unmodified condition are Relics, many 9mm, 38 spl, 357mag handguns. Swiss K31, Garands, Mosin Nagants etc are all "curios and Relics". Almost all Firearms made before 1962 (they must have been orginally issued as non-select fire or full Automatic to qualify) and even some Full AUTO Machine gun are considered Curio and Relics (although I can't afford the $$$). I am allowed to buy and SELL to enhance my Collection as long as I do not receive a "substantial" portion of my income from this practice. Truthfully I have only traded one gun at a gun show. This was a Colt 22 cal AR that I traded for a Garand with some cash. I have given a few guns to family members as gifts (all hold LTCH's). I normally don't sell any of my collection - haven't sold one since I obtained my license last year, but if the right price was offered and I could purchase another gun I want - I might. I honestly believe VERY few (and they would be very dumb) felons would attend a GS to purchase a firearm. Most are not that stupid, I feel sure most gun shows have at least one, if not more, ATF agents in attendance as well as LEO's. Felons are also aware of this and certainly have other avenues to purchase or steal weapons without the attendant risk of being arrested at a GS. I'm also sure a few new gun buyers at gun shows may be rejected by the background check for something in their past that they didn't know disqualified them - maybe a fight with their wife 20 years ago they were "charged" with domestic abuse.. Which will disqualify them.

 

[shibumiseeker]

NICS is correct.

Also, I agree with a background check. It would be great if there was a 1-800 number you could call during a transaction to process a simple background check. No details... just a yes or no. You could then just write down an approval number on a bill of sale.

And you can use it to check your neighbor, your teenager's date, your politician... I can see a myriad of uses!

Of course, heaven help the person who is listed as a "no-go" for no actual reason either because the system had an error (that never happens, right?), or someone with the same name is a scumbag (never happens either?) or, or, or, or. There are people who are on no-fly lists who somehow got on the list while they were on vacation who now can't get home. Yeah, I trust any system they set up...

And no offense, but I am not giving you my SSN, home address, birthdate, etc, so that you can steal my identity.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I know

woah, did your post count reset after 50,000???

 

[Chr15topher]

And you can use it to check your neighbor, your teenager's date, your politician... I can see a myriad of uses!

Of course, heaven help the person who is listed as a "no-go" for no actual reason either because the system had an error (that never happens, right?), or someone with the same name is a scumbag (never happens either?) or, or, or, or. There are people who are on no-fly lists who somehow got on the list while they were on vacation who now can't get home. Yeah, I trust any system they set up...

And no offense, but I am not giving you my SSN, home address, birthdate, etc, so that you can steal my identity.

Obviously, there would have to be stipulations... I have no idea how it would work without going through an FFL. I was just throwing something out there. And you are correct about our current NICS system being flawed.

 

[HnK]

woah, did your post count reset after 50,000???

I have lurked on these boards for years but just joined. Maybe another user with a similar name.

 

[HoughMade]

OK, I posted this elsewhere in a topic where "how many guns do I have to sell before I am a dealer" was the question:

18 U.S.C. sec. 923(a) states, in pertinent part:

No person shall engage in the business of...dealing in firearms, ...until he has...received a license to do so from the Attorney General...
So, the question then is- where do I find the definition of "business of dealing in firearms"?

18 U.S.C. sec 921(a)(21)(C) states:

(21) The term "engaged in the business" means -
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;...

...so how do you tell a hobbyist or collector from a dealer.?...wrong question. How do THEY tell a hobbyist or collector from a dealer?

Here's a case, an oldy, but a goody from another circuit, that provides some guidelines, but there is still no precise answer:

To make out the crime under the statute it was incumbent upon the Government to prove the status of the defendant as a "dealer" in firearms. In order to satisfy this burden the Government need not prove that the defendant's primary business was dealing in firearms or that he necessarily made a profit from such dealing; "it must (however) show a willingness (on the defendant's part) to deal, a profit motive, and a greater degree of activity than occasional sales by a hobbyist." [citation omitted]. The Government may do this by showing that the defendant "had guns on hand or (was) ready and able to procure them and sell them to such persons as might accept them as customers." [citations omitted]. The bulk of the conversations between the defendant and the undercover agents was thus relevant in establishing the defendant's status as a dealer by showing that the defendant had a supply of guns... which he had sold to other customers and which he was willing then to sell to the undercover agents.

United States v. Masters, 622 F.2d 83, 88 (4th Cir. 1980).

Moral of the story? Be careful and be conservative. If you think you might go over the line from hobbyist to "dealer"- you probably have, at least in the gvt's eyes and if the gvt. wants to, they can probably prove it.

 

[Bradsknives]

What the ATF frowns on is the guys/gals that set up at gun shows weekly buying and selling firearms that are not FFL holders. Their sole intent is to make a profit and by definition that is a business and by law must have a FFL. I know dozens of people that do this, I see them every weekend at the shows. Some of them are doing 30 to 40 or more shows a year....that is a business. When they buy a firearm, generally they put it under the table and take it home, but never put right back on the table that weekend for resale. This is how they justify skirting the law by claiming that they added it to their personal collection and then they bring it back out for resale at the next show that they set up at. This is why you see the signs “Private Collection” or “Personal Collection”. I'm sure most of them know they are breaking the law by running a business, but justify it because of the “gray” area about legally being able to sell from their “private collection”.



If you fit the above description, then you are breaking the law, but if you are an individual that attends shows once in awhile and are truly just selling/trading some of your personal firearms then you don't need a FFL and there really is no limit based on current law on how many you can sell out of your personal/private collection.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

 

[Manatee]

Background check changes are likely to be the only significant change in gun law from this Congress...at least according to people in the industry that I know.

What that means isn't certain and will likely be debated strenously. I expect that you will be required to complete a 4473 at all guns shows, that states that do not use NICS will eventually be incorporated into the NICS system (California and Colorado, for example).

In addition, if you transfer a firearm to a person that is not in your immediate family and do not complete a background check, you will be an accessory for any downstream criminal use of that firearm. That is criminal as well as civil penalties.

Of course, this could just be talk, but the guys I've been discussing this with generally have a pretty good feel for legislation.

 

[Double T]

What the ATF frowns on is the guys/gals that set up at gun shows weekly buying and selling firearms that are not FFL holders. Their sole intent is to make a profit and by definition that is a business and by law must have a FFL. I know dozens of people that do this, I see them every weekend at the shows. Some of them are doing 30 to 40 or more shows a year....that is a business. When they buy a firearm, generally they put it under the table and take it home, but never put right back on the table that weekend for resale. This is how they justify skirting the law by claiming that they added it to their personal collection and then they bring it back out for resale at the next show that they set up at. This is why you see the signs “Private Collection” or “Personal Collection”. I'm sure most of them know they are breaking the law by running a business, but justify it because of the “gray” area about legally being able to sell from their “private collection”.



If you fit the above description, then you are breaking the law, but if you are an individual that attends shows once in awhile and are truly just selling/trading some of your personal firearms then you don't need a FFL and there really is no limit based on current law on how many you can sell out of your personal/private collection.

While I agree to a point, what if they are using the money to fund another firearm purchase? The law requires an FFL to make a living off of. What if someone is trying to purchase that full auto Thompson SMG they've been dreaming about?

Would it then be ok to have a separate saving account setup to transfer the funds to sit in until the firearm can be purchased?

I see that as an acceptable action under current law, and it would require strict paperwork and such.

If someone is turning a profit to eat or provide, then that's needing an FFL. But if someone is turning a profit to buy something crazy expensive that is a firearm, then I see no problem with it legally.

I'm also not a BATFE agent, lawyer, or judge. I am a person that sees a flaw in the NICS and FFL system. There needs to be something in between C&R and fully licensed dealer. Perhaps a hobbyist FFL license, strictly funding gun purchases, and the only requirement being keeping strict papers and a separate bank account.

 

[drillsgt]

Sadly, we are now facing the possibility, if not certainty, of "universal" background checks because of people like this. Go to any small town gun show and the number of tables with a sign that reads private collection dwarfs the number of tables set up by actual dealers. Because these guys don't want to deal with the hassle or expense of getting their FFL, the rest of us will soon not be able to buy or sell a single firearm without the hassle and expense of meeting at a FFL and documenting, and paying for, the transaction.

And once that happens I doubt you'll see 15.00 or 20.00 transaction fees anymore.

 

[BGDave]

Tagging this. Remember this man from GS.

 

[SaintsNSinners]

The insane and asinine problem with this is that it is so hard to get an FFL. I looked into one. I have this nasty habit of getting bored with guns or not liking some small miniscule problem with mine and selling them to start over again.

This anondizing doesnt match on this EBR,
Not the right shade of black
There is a seem in the water transfer,
Shoots to High
Shoots to low,
Doesnt shoot the same as this rifle

And other useless problems I find. Im into $4k-$6k dollar rifles and I expect them to be perfect when I am finished. I build on the cheap looking for deals and steals along the way, But I will sell them for Whatever fair market value is.

Is that selling for profit or is that selling because I am asinine about what firearms I own?

 

[Fawkes]

I totally disagree with your statements - as does the ATF. I hold an FFL-03 (collector of Curio and Relics) license and there are laws that allow me to Buy AND SELL firearms. I am not allowed to have access to the Federal background check and so obviously cannot run a check. Well you say I deal in old guns, right? Almost all SKS rifles in unmodified condition are Relics, many 9mm, 38 spl, 357mag handguns. Swiss K31, Garands, Mosin Nagants etc are all "curios and Relics". Almost all Firearms made before 1962 (they must have been orginally issued as non-select fire or full Automatic to qualify) and even some Full AUTO Machine gun are considered Curio and Relics (although I can't afford the $$$). I am allowed to buy and SELL to enhance my Collection as long as I do not receive a "substantial" portion of my income from this practice. Truthfully I have only traded one gun at a gun show. This was a Colt 22 cal AR that I traded for a Garand with some cash. I have given a few guns to family members as gifts (all hold LTCH's). I normally don't sell any of my collection - haven't sold one since I obtained my license last year, but if the right price was offered and I could purchase another gun I want - I might. I honestly believe VERY few (and they would be very dumb) felons would attend a GS to purchase a firearm. Most are not that stupid, I feel sure most gun shows have at least one, if not more, ATF agents in attendance as well as LEO's. Felons are also aware of this and certainly have other avenues to purchase or steal weapons without the attendant risk of being arrested at a GS. I'm also sure a few new gun buyers at gun shows may be rejected by the background check for something in their past that they didn't know disqualified them - maybe a fight with their wife 20 years ago they were "charged" with domestic abuse.. Which will disqualify them.

+1 agreed.
I also have an 03 C&R FFL and Life LTCH

If these people transacting at gunshows without a license are truly a risk to society then the biggest offenders I have seen are not the small time guys set up at tables, they don't get to the good stuff or the deals usually, its the door hawks and others like them that are openly buying and selling on the fly. I have seen these guys (no FFL) turn many transactions in the space of a few hours with nothing but a wad of cash, buying a pistol or whatever from an uninformed or motivated seller at the door and selling it minutes later for substantial profit. I've seen the same guys doing this in Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio. I have always marveled at how they didn't get ATF attention as they are very obvious to me and I'm not looking for it.

 

[Indy317]

The guy sold 200 guns in four years, or fifty guns a year, which is an average of four guns a month. They waited for years before finally charging him. This sounds like they tried to get him quickly, but since he likely did everything lawfully in terms of a private seller, then they couldn't get him. Instead, they just let him go to gun show to gun show, continue to sell, sell, and sell some more, and they finally figured they would have enough that any reasonable jury would see he was selling guns w/o a license. People buy and sell guns all the time, but some people I know may buy guns over a 15 year period and end up selling five or so over a ten year period. Nothing near what this guy did.

 

[Spanky46151]

I recently went through the FFL licensing process. It wasn't difficult, but it was a very slow process and did require a bit of footwork on my part. I am a licensed auctioneer and got the FFL on the advice of the ATF. I surrendered my license within 90 days.

It is easier to simply not involve myself in the sale of any firearm that may skirt the "technical" faux pas catagory. I also have 28 years of law enforcement experience and, if there is one thing I can assure you, federal agencies, especially the ATF, take their responsibilites very seriously and their involvement in your life will certainly cause your stress levels to rocket. I do my best to not blip on their radar screens.

 

[Scuba591]

Interesting story. I agree that we most likely do not have all the info needed.
I did; however, learn allot from the other posts.

 

[Pinchaser]

Garbage "journalism."

 

[boozoo]

I half expect part of the EO's King Barry signed included ridiculous over zealous ATF prosecutions of guys like this AND 01 FFL's.

Hell, I only hold an '03 and I'm more than a little nervous about making sure all my records are in order.

 

[92ThoStro]

I think it is fine the way it is personally, being in the gray area. If the government were to place a limit on the amount you could sell, trade, or transfer, it would get pretty difficult for those of you that have projects, or have lots of guns that you don't need, and want to sell them to buy a nice one. This reminds me of California, and the Board of Equalization.

In CA you need a sellers permit to sell things as a business, or commercially, or however you say it.
But what defines this? I will use animals as an example.
The CA BoE states if you sell more than two (2) non-food animals ( pets, which include horses ) per year, that you need to obtain a sellers permit for tax purposes. Agricultural animals, those used for food, are exempt from this permit. Horses are classified as pets, not agricultural animals in CA though.

How would you react if the ATF said you can only sell two firearms a year without an FFL?

As a side note, if any of you use Craigslist. I happen to be from the Bay Area, which is where CL started. If you used it when it first started, you would know that you were once allowed to sell pets on there. The CL Terms of Use state your post has to follow all CA laws and regulations, as that is where CL is located. Anything prohibited OR RESTRICTED under CA law is not allowed on CL.
When the CA BoE passed restrictions on selling pets to 2 per year, CL updated their rules, and you are no longer allowed to sell pets on craigslist, this applies nationally to their website.

This guy sold a substantial amount of firearms, and he wasn't charged after 10, 15, 20 or even 100. It's one thing if the ATF jumped on him right away, but this isn't the case here. He is going to get the book thrown at him, then everyone else might think twice about doing what he did.

EDIT BTW , yep that means that if your dog has a litter of puppies, you need a permit to sell more than 2 of them. Now, is this actively enforced by the CA govt?, nope. They rely on citizens to report the sellers via online forms.