Greenwood man sentenced to prison for firearms dealing

[jayhawk]

While I agree to a point, what if they are using the money to fund another firearm purchase? The law requires an FFL to make a living off of. What if someone is trying to purchase that full auto Thompson SMG they've been dreaming about?

Would it then be ok to have a separate saving account setup to transfer the funds to sit in until the firearm can be purchased?

I see that as an acceptable action under current law, and it would require strict paperwork and such.

If someone is turning a profit to eat or provide, then that's needing an FFL. But if someone is turning a profit to buy something crazy expensive that is a firearm, then I see no problem with it legally.

I'm also not a BATFE agent, lawyer, or judge. I am a person that sees a flaw in the NICS and FFL system. There needs to be something in between C&R and fully licensed dealer. Perhaps a hobbyist FFL license, strictly funding gun purchases, and the only requirement being keeping strict papers and a separate bank account.

I have a feeling the BATFE is going to view income as income. It doesn't matter what form it comes in or what it gets spent on. The amount of income probably has some significance, but we don't know where that line is. Raising eyebrows with a scrap over an automatic weapon may very well lower that threshold of significance in the eyes of the BATFE.

 

[Bradsknives]

While I agree to a point, what if they are using the money to fund another firearm purchase? The law requires an FFL to make a living off of. What if someone is trying to purchase that full auto Thompson SMG they've been dreaming about?

Would it then be ok to have a separate saving account setup to transfer the funds to sit in until the firearm can be purchased?

I see that as an acceptable action under current law, and it would require strict paperwork and such.

If someone is turning a profit to eat or provide, then that's needing an FFL. But if someone is turning a profit to buy something crazy expensive that is a firearm, then I see no problem with it legally.

I'm also not a BATFE agent, lawyer, or judge. I am a person that sees a flaw in the NICS and FFL system. There needs to be something in between C&R and fully licensed dealer. Perhaps a hobbyist FFL license, strictly funding gun purchases, and the only requirement being keeping strict papers and a separate bank account.

Engaging in a business does not mean you are making a living off of that business.

18 U.S.C. sec 921(a)(21)(C) states:
Quote:
(21) The term "engaged in the business" means -
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;...

What the profits are used for does not matter. If your running a firearms business (business is defined above) by law you are required to be a FFL holder.

 

[solution_zero]

Tough case..... I wonder what the real deal is on that OA93 that got him noticed.

It was in his trunk with several other rifles during a traffic stop. It was determined to be F/A by a gunsmith, but the charges were dropped once Olympic Arms told them it could have been their fault. I'm guessing this is when the feds started watching him, and building a case against him.

Garbage "journalism."

The article was written at the request of the man's son, to try to vindictate his father's image, and he was well aware that both sides of the story had to be represented. If you had read the rest of the paper, especially the editoral, you would see the owners of the Southside Times are conservative and pro-gun.

 

[Glocker 400]

How would you react if the ATF said you can only sell two firearms a year without an FFL?

Exactly.

I'm surprised that any advocate of the 2nd Amendment would label someone a "scumbag" for the equivalent of failing to get a business license. Was he a dummy? Yeah. But a scumbag? Not just because of this.

If possession of high capacity magazines is outlawed, I wonder how many INGO members will be turning in "scumbags" with P-mags.

Why should I worry about Obama coming for my guns? It's the tattle-tale down the street that will be doing his work for him.

 

[dubsac]

Anybody want to go half on a table for the next 1500???? Its 100 per table, we get vendor passes and free parking never wait in line again

 

[Darral27]

"And most importantly, why was Klinge not given a serious fair warning by A.T.F. prior to an investigation, as is customary considering the ambiguity of the law? Would Klinge have responded respectfully and intelligently to such warning, considering that his family, freedom, passion, and life goals would be at risk otherwise?"

This part would be what I question. I have heard of the "fair warning practice" by the ATF before. Being that the laws are not completely clear why would they have not told him what they thought he was doing wrong before coming in and arresting him. He obviously was not trying to sell to improper people.

I am also curious about the rifle in his trunk. If the police asked me if they could search my vehicle and I had a full auto rifle in the trunk my answer would be no. Without due cause the officer could not search my vehicle without a warrant. I also highly doubt that this guy would be hauling around a illegal firearm just for the hell of it.

I think more of this story needs released. What is there right now with the start of the story seem's like Greenwood police may be covering their butt's and this ATF thing was just a little bit of retribution.

 

[BGDave]

OA-93 is a pistol that has a short bolt carrier. Full auto would be a good trick.

 

[solution_zero]

I am also curious about the rifle in his trunk. If the police asked me if they could search my vehicle and I had a full auto rifle in the trunk my answer would be no. Without due cause the officer could not search my vehicle without a warrant. I also highly doubt that this guy would be hauling around a illegal firearm just for the hell of it.

It was NIB, he just picked it up from a show that weekend. He proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not modify it, and the related charges were dropped. He is in jail for selling without a FFL License, not possession of an illegal machine gun.

OA-93 is a pistol that has a short bolt carrier. Full auto would be a good trick.

Olympic Arms has had their fair share of "mistakes", especially around the time these were manufactured.

 

[bmyers]

haven't heard about it, but not at all surprised.. it's the law and i see it taking place all the time. I have turned people in for it and I will continue to do so!
I sold a gun on INGO, and I got home and within the hour I saw the gun posted on armslist and it was marked up and he was selling the gun in a "lot"
scum-bags.

How is this guy a scum bag? Sounds like someone should've known the value of their gun.

 

[92ThoStro]

Exactly.

I'm surprised that any advocate of the 2nd Amendment would label someone a "scumbag" for the equivalent of failing to get a business license. Was he a dummy? Yeah. But a scumbag? Not just because of this.

If possession of high capacity magazines is outlawed, I wonder how many INGO members will be turning in "scumbags" with P-mags.

Why should I worry about Obama coming for my guns? It's the tattle-tale down the street that will be doing his work for him.

Yep, I don't think he is a scum bag, or a bad guy even, unless there is more to the story. He should have got a license, but he didn't. Throwing the book at him will make other sellers think twice. Have I sold too many? Should I get a license? With this new age in technology, one could set up their own business at home, buying and selling firearms, but since they don't have a brick and mortar store, and just use Armslist, or INGO or something, they might think they don't need an FFL. They aren't bad people... But obviously they are wrong

Edit: The tax protesting issue is a very good point. Maybe he feels like it is his right to sell, and he believes that the government is imposing unfair restrictions on him. Reminds me of the Sovereign Citizen movement, and also of income tax protesters. Not bad people.

 

[thompal]

It was NIB, he just picked it up from a show that weekend. He proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not modify it, and the related charges were dropped.

He doesn't have to prove that he didn't modify it, THEY have to prove that he did. And they couldn't. As soon as they talked to the manufacturer, they realized that any jury would have "reasonable doubt," so they just dropped that charge.

 

[38special]

I feel bad for the guy, but if he was doing this as a business, why not get an FFL?

It's not THAT expensive.

If you intend to sell guns as a business, especially 30-40 shows a year, just get an FFL.

 

[hornadylnl]

Exactly.

I'm surprised that any advocate of the 2nd Amendment would label someone a "scumbag" for the equivalent of failing to get a business license. Was he a dummy? Yeah. But a scumbag? Not just because of this.

If possession of high capacity magazines is outlawed, I wonder how many INGO members will be turning in "scumbags" with P-mags.

Why should I worry about Obama coming for my guns? It's the tattle-tale down the street that will be doing his work for him.

No better tattle tails and defenders of unconstitutional gun control laws than fellow gun owners.

 

[JettaKnight]

No better tattle tails and defenders of unconstitutional gun control laws than fellow gun owners.

Why can't we police ourselves?

This isn't necessarily a 2A issue, it's likely a business license / tax evasion issue.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Why can't we police ourselves?

This isn't necessarily a 2A issue, it's likely a business license / tax evasion issue.

That stands true if you believe the law is just and proper. Avoiding paying an unfair or illegal tax is the American way and one of our founding stories, and if that tax is based on something that one does not believe should require licensing then one should refuse to be a snitch. There are many things I believe the government does have a responsibility to regulate and thus require licensing for dealers, but personal arms is not one of them as that right is enshrined in the Constitution. I see it as exactly the same thing as requiring a license to publish a newspaper.

 

[sgtonory]

haven't heard about it, but not at all surprised.. it's the law and i see it taking place all the time. I have turned people in for it and I will continue to do so!
I sold a gun on INGO, and I got home and within the hour I saw the gun posted on armslist and it was marked up and he was selling the gun in a "lot"
scum-bags.

Is the gun not his or her property when they buy it? What if i did that with a car is that a crime? If you sell something below market what difference dose it make if someone is trying to make some $?

 

[sgtonory]

I feel bad for the guy, but if he was doing this as a business, why not get an FFL?

It's not THAT expensive.

If you intend to sell guns as a business, especially 30-40 shows a year, just get an FFL.

Why do we need to get a license to do something? Are we all not free? What next get a license to have kids, grow a garden? At what point do you say i dont need to ask anyone for permission to run my live!

 

[bberg]

Sounds like the $200 FFL would have been a prudent investment if you know you are going to have a table at gun shows every week. look what it would have saved in the long run.

 

[ACC]

You get that FFL and you open yourself up to unannounced searches at any time. Some people are not fond of that.

 

[BE Mike]

I haven't read every post here, so I'm not sure whether or not this man had any other income. I would think that if this was his principle income, he would be a dealer without a license. If he was dealing without a license to avoid paying taxes, then he took his chances, but was caught and must now pay for making bad decisions. He did plead guilty. Unfortunately, his loyal family must suffer the consequences of his actions as well. As far as the comment(s) about firearms owners turning on their own, all I can say is that someone operating outside of the law is not someone I want to relate to and law-abiding citizens (including gun owners) will cooperate with the authorities, whether or not they agree with the law. I do not think that people who are operating outside the law at gunshows or anywhere else deserve our loyalty or support. We need to set the best examples, if we are to be taken seriously, otherwise the actions of the few will be our downfall.