Gun show loop hole

[cwillour]

right so is there a penalty if your caught buying a firearm to a felon?

IANAL, but:

Buying a firearm for a known felon (or otherwise prohibited individual)? -- felony

Buying a firearm for as a gift somebody who happens to be a felon? (not reasonably known by you at the time) -- probably depends on the prosecutor and your relationship with the felon, i.e. whether you would actually be purchasing a gift for somebody and not know that they are a fellon (or are otherwise prohibited)

Selling a firearm to somebody who happens to be a felon? (not reasonably known by you at the time) -- likely depends on the prosecutor, but generally not a felony

 

[T.Lex]

right so is there a penalty if your caught buying a firearm to a felon?

18 USC 922(d)

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person - (1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

Federal felony, punishable by up to 10 years in prison.
Request Rejectedguncard.pdf

 

[GMtoblat]

so should it be better enforced? on the documentary they had hidden cameras and showed a staw purchase being done in plain sight, not much effort in concealing what was being done. is this portrayal at gun shows accurate?

 

[92ThoStro]

If you ask for their drivers license, and then ask if they can legally posses and own the gun, and they comply. Then how would you get in trouble? You have to knowingly sell it to a felon. If you unknowingly sell it to a felon, it's not the same, right?

Same goes for money.
At work if we knowingly accept counterfeit money, and knowingly turn that counterfeit money into the bank, we get in big trouble/
If you don't know it is counterfeit, and turn it into the bank, you just lose the money, but no legal recourse.

EDIT: Ok, he was asking about straw purchases, not private sales between two people.

 

[shibumiseeker]

so should it be better enforced? on the documentary they had hidden cameras and showed a staw purchase being done in plain sight, not much effort in concealing what was being done. is this portrayal at gun shows accurate?

Not at any of the gun shows I've been to. Most dealers are plenty wary of at the very least having their licenses revoked and at the most landing in jail, so they will go far beyond the letter of the law and if you are even acting hinky they will decline a sale. Like the ones where a woman comes in to buy a gun for a gift to her husband (who could buy it himself) and gets accused of trying to make a straw purchase and denied a sale. We hear about that from time to time here too.

Yeah, there are dealers out there who will be shady. There's also enough sting operations out there that they run a very high risk of getting caught.

If you dig hard enough you can find it, but it's not rampant out there.

 

[T.Lex]

so should it be better enforced? on the documentary they had hidden cameras and showed a staw purchase being done in plain sight, not much effort in concealing what was being done. is this portrayal at gun shows accurate?

If that video was shot after about 1996, I'd say absolutely not. In fact, I'd say it was probably staged.

The federal authorities have been known in the past to put undercover agents at gun shows to ask dealers to do all sorts of illegal things, and some things that aren't technically illegal, but enough to get you in trouble (like talking about semi- to full-auto conversions; not actually doing them, just talking about them).

In terms of "better" enforcement, how? Any time law enforcement finds a gun at the scene of a crime, they try to trace it. If they determine there was an illegal sale, they prosecute. To aim for "better" enforcement, let's define what's "wrong" with the current enforcement.

 

[GMtoblat]

well this has been insightfull, i think i'm done here and will go back to work. Good day
the documentary is definately post virginia tech, one of the anti-gun lobbyist was a survivor

 

[cwillour]

so should it be better enforced? on the documentary they had hidden cameras and showed a staw purchase being done in plain sight, not much effort in concealing what was being done. is this portrayal at gun shows accurate?

Without knowing more details about the documentary or the purchase, I am not willing address what they showed. There have been enough doctored documentaries that I have a hard time trusting the portrayals they provide.

I do not attend gun shows frequently, but I have seen a large number of transactions turned away by dealers over suspicious behavior. The most frequent scenario I have seen dealers shy away from is when one individual spends time handling the firearms and then walks away for the "buyer" to fill out the paperwork.

 

[printcraft]

.....
the documentary is definately post virginia tech, one of the anti-gun lobbyist was a survivor

That answers all your questions to the validity of the "documentary".

Anti-gunners with an agenda. Gee, I wonder how that will be slanted..

 

[JettaKnight]

well this has been insightfull, i think i'm done here and will go back to work. Good day
the documentary is definately post virginia tech, one of the anti-gun lobbyist was a survivor

Is this the one where they spend a bunch of time at Knob Creek?

 

[GMtoblat]

couldnt say im sure itll be on HBO again

 

[RolanNRA]

My take on it is for private party sales there so be some questions that you should ask before selling a firearm. Such as are you a felon? are you under indictment? and basically the same questions that are asked of you when you purchase from a licensed dealer however no paperwork and no background check......unless the private party chooses to...But should not be required to do so

 

[Bill of Rights]

A point I didn't see addressed: If I own a couple of hammers and my neighbor wants to buy one, should we have to go to a (federally licensed?) hardware store so that my neighbor can have his background checked and an extra $20-$30 can be added to the sale?

If the answer above is yes, I don't see how this can be discussed... the person so answering obviously believes that more regulation will help anything.

If, however, the answer is no, despite the 43,600,000 google hits on "killed with a hammer" (some are duplicates, of course,) then the person so answering sees that regulating the private sale of an object does not prevent it being used to cause harm, nor does it increase the number or method by which the object can be used for good (and incidentally, lawful) purposes.

"Closing the 'gun show loophole' is, as said upthread, code for "we don't think you should be allowed to buy and sell your personal property without governmental interference and approval. We think you're too stupid and irresponsible to manage your own affairs, so we're going to manage them for you and you just be a good little wind-up toy for our amusement and revenue generation."

It's clear incrementalism. If I can't buy a gun privately at a gun show from another non-dealer attendee, then why could I do so in the parking lot? Or in the wal-mart parking lot down the road? Or in my own driveway across town? Or anywhere at all. It's a method by which government gets to know how many guns are being sold... which information can be used to justify all the unknown guns that "should be tracked and recorded! We have to know how many are out there!"

Bull.

You (gov't) don't need to know jack about the way I run my life. You do know a fair amount of it, but you have no need to, not that I expect those infringements on my right to privacy will go away any time soon.

And I still don't think the arbitrary tag of "felon" should bar someone from gun ownership... All "felonies" are not the horrific crimes that that word once meant. You can become a "felon" over a 99 cent bag of potato chips.

(To clarify, I know the OP rethought his original post and I commend him for his open mind on the subject. I just wanted to add these thoughts to the thread, in the hopes others may consider them in the future.)

Blessings,
Bill

 

[T.Lex]

Good points, BoR. (BTW, can I borrow a hammer?)

I think the OP's doc was:
Gun Fight: Synopsis

The first paragraph has enough cringe-factor for me to avoid the heart medication necessary to watch it.

There are an estimated 250 million guns in the United States today. Over the past dozen years, a string of deadly shootings has pockmarked the nation as guns – licensed and unlicensed – have found their way into the wrong hands.

Just FYI.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Good points, BoR. (BTW, can I borrow a hammer?)
...

Thank you. And if I had a hammer, I'd hammer in the morning, the evening, and all over this land.

Ask ATM, I think he might have one. And an Arm to go with it.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Johnny C]

there are a lot of laws that mandate common sense...its illegal to rob a bank, steal someones identity. theres alot people out there who dont use common sense, people are stupid, i.e. Costas you could go on and on, point is people dont use common sense

Laws are not to mandate common sense, they are in place to allow punishment of some sort for not being followed.

 

[ATM]

Yep, here ya go.

 

[schafe]

Laws aren't supposed to be passed to make people "comfortable". In my opinion, laws are supposed to prohibit and provide penalty for behavior that has a definitive, measureable, deleterious effect on a society that agrees to be bound by such laws. We have far too many laws currently on the books that do not meet this standard, and we do not need more of the same.

" That agrees to be bound by such laws." That is the most important phrase I've seen in this thread. Rep outgoing.

 

[cardio1]

Look, the problem is that we don't need the government to tell us what we can and can not do in every facet of life. That's called freedom.

So, if your gonna sell your car to someone, are you gonna run a background check on him? How do you know the buyer doesn't have 3 DWI's and is going to run into a busload on Nuns. Should the Gas Station run a background check to sell him gas? He might be an arsonist? Walgreens sells small bags of fertilizer. Background check? You might be a terrorist trying to build a bomb?

Just use common sense. You don't need a law to cover everything that might happen that you don't like. Life has some risks, get used to it.

+1 What he said^^^^

 

[bloodandgutsmurphy]

I think that they are going to close that loophole now.