Gun Stores that Openly Oppose Open Carry?

[ralphb72]

I agree with what someone else already said, call the owner and let them know they are about to loose your business.

 

[Hoosier]

I support your position and the right to open carry here in Indiana. However, I always carry concealed. I never want anyone to know I am carrying. If I ever need to use the weapon I want it to be a surprise.
Hoosier

 

[Tru3Flight91]

Open carry? Concealed carry? I honestly don;t see why it matters so much what people choose. Personally I'm more likely to open carry when I get a weapon, I feel no need to be ashamed of my rights. I do value the advantages of concealed carry though, it all really depends on the situation. It's nice to have a choice.

In the case of this gun shop employee he has no right to tell people who don't know the law that they shouldn't open carry. That's just not cool. People have a right to open carry and if they want to they can exercise that right wherever they want. Period.

This employee has demonstrated behavior that is inappropriate and unbecoming, especially when talking to people who were looking for accurate information on the law.

On the other hand I can certainly understand a no loaded guns in a gun shop policy.

After all if something does happen theres plenty of ammo right?

 

[jedi]

The salesman's response to this customer's question was this; he said, "The law doesn't specify how you have to carry, but do NOT Open Carry. If you do, you will be bringing a LOT of negative attention to yourself that you do NOT want."

At this, I wasn't too riled; I hear this kind of stuff all the time. But it's what he said next that bothered me. He said, "There have been guys that've walked in here Open Carrying, and every time I tell 'em to get out!" He said all of this with a very obvious passion (borderline anger) in his tone.

I thought, really? A store that sells nothing but items that pertain to the 2nd Amendment would tell someone to leave simply for expressing his or her 2nd Amendment rights?

IMO

1) 2A has nothing to do with your right to have a firearm. 2A at it's core is a shinny reminder to the federal government that THE PEOPLE have the right to use violence to overthrow the fed should they (the feds) ever get out of hand. Not is says "the right of the people to get and bear arms" as in arms = knife = handgun = riffle = lightsaber = whatever tool we can use.


2) a gun shop is a biz and it' first and only goal is to make money like any other biz. The owner/clerks may or may not care what their products do (for society or your rights). They just know that product "abc" will make them a profit.

 

[eldirector]

Rather than make an OC/CC or loaded/unloaded comment, I think this is really about professionalism and training. The employee was passing incorrect information and personal opinions.

As a firearms professional, he had better be pretty well versed in local, state, and federal law. If not, it is time for some employee training. Same goes for store policies. If the owner allows OC and allows loaded carry, then the employee does too. Finally, his personal opinions are irrelevant while on the clock. It is unprofessional to do otherwise.

Passing bad info and personal gripes on an internet forum is one thing. Getting paid for it is quite another.

Too bad they lost your business that day, and possibly turned off the new customer. Make sure the owner knows, so he can correct the behavior. Maybe he can earn your business back.

 

[GregD]

This has been a very interesting thread. I would like to hear from Mike, the owner, on this.

 

[Prometheus]

I would have probably called him out.... but I'm a peckerhead like that....

I open carry in every gun shop I go in to.... that would be ONE place I would expect to be welcomed, not shunned.

+1

I can't imagine buying from a shop that doesn't want you carrying.

I open carry in every gun shop I go in (except during winter when I have a jacket on).

Most shops make the distinction between a carry gun... that said, it seems like there are a lot of anti-gun gun shops down around Indy.

 

[Prometheus]

For gun shows, it is a matter of insurance reasons. Getting liability insurance for promoting gun shows is almost impossible...just finding a insurance company that will write you a policy is almost impossible. When you are lucky enough to find a insurance company that will cover you.... you basically have to sign that policy in blood and guarantee that there will be no loaded firearms in the building during the show (the exception being LE). As for firearm related businesses (actual store fronts) I'm not sure if the same thing applies. Someone in the the business can probably explain it better.

No for gun shops it isn't insurance related.

For those who don't believe me, ask your local pro gun shop... or just look at the many national chains such as Cabelas, Bass Pro and Gander Mountain. All have CORPORATE policies allowing CC/OC (as state law allows). You really think they'd do that if insurance regs prohibited it?

If you local gun shop doesn't allow it, it's because the owner is anti-YOU.

 

[Tallenn]

I always felt it was a bit of a contradiction until the wife and I opened up our humble little shop.
You would not believe the crap we see from behind the counters. For every gunshop worker story I could tell ten of the clowns that walk in.
92.5% of the guys and gals that walk in are well put together intelligent safe gun owners but its that much smaller number that we read about regularly on the forums that scares me,
Marion county Sheriff walks in hot summer day proceeds to drag his sweat and funk encrusted loaded pistol out of the back of his pants and hand it to me loaded with one in the chamber on a Hi Power and says " Hey boy whatcha gimme for this on trade"?

Needless to say he left quite upset with me, and is likely not to come back.
Hate to lose a customer but I'm good with that particular one shopping elsewhere.

At this time we do not have a sign up and hope we don't have to put one up.

See, I would look at these as opportunities to teach some firearms safety. If you do it in a respectful, non-condescending manner, you may very well turn a dangerous, careless gun owner into a safety-conscious one.

 

[Bill of Rights]

No for gun shops it isn't insurance related.

For those who don't believe me, ask your local pro gun shop... or just look at the many national chains such as Cabelas, Bass Pro and Gander Mountain. All have CORPORATE policies allowing CC/OC (as state law allows). You really think they'd do that if insurance regs prohibited it?

If you local gun shop doesn't allow it, it's because the owner is anti-YOU.

With one of the Companies we contacted they required the same for the shop. The others never mentioned it.

Apparently, Pro, this is not always the case. It might simply be a lack of research and instead, going with the first company they call. Not the smartest decision on anything, but it's not always malicious.

FWIW, INGO member printmitch is the owner of Applied Ballistics in Lafayette. Several months ago, he and his partner were discussing the store's opening and somehow or other, the not-yet-finalized rules of the range were made available for INGO's perusal. IIRC, the fecal matter struck the oscillating cooling device when the range policy that was still under discussion included a line reading (as best I remember it) No loaded guns inside the building, except on the firing line. Our employees and on-duty LEOs exempted.

Several people wrote good suggestions. In the end, the policy was modified to it's current writing (which I'm too lazy to look up); essentially, "No unholstered or uncased firearms off of the firing line."

Nothing about loaded vs. unloaded, no special exemptions, just keep it in the holster or the case, and there is no issue. If you draw it away from the line, either it's got a chamber flag in it and is there for service or sale, or you leave, probably only for the day. (the first time)

Reasoning: What is most of our reaction to, "Hey buddy... whatcha carrying?"

Yep. Pull it out and show it off.

A gun is not dangerous in a good holster. Nothing can pull the trigger, so it doesn't go bang there.

I'll be honest: Not being able to draw to check a holster is a pain in the backside, however, I far prefer that to having to unload and reload in the parking lot.

I applaud Applied Ballistics as a company and Stan and Dave as open-minded, easy-to-work-with men who are absolutely committed to the 2A and run their business with that as one of their guiding principles.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Joe Williams]

snip
I'll be honest: Not being able to draw to check a holster is a pain in the backside, however, I far prefer that to having to unload and reload in the parking lot.

I applaud Applied Ballistics as a company and Stan and Dave as open-minded, easy-to-work-with men who are absolutely committed to the 2A and run their business with that as one of their guiding principles.

Blessings,
Bill

As an aside, you can check holster fit at Applied Ballistics. I simply asked them to let me go to the range to do so. They slid me a pair of headsets, and sent me on my way.

It's a good store.

 

[451_Detonics]

We would never have opposed open carry in our store but I absolutely forbid anyone removing a gun they were carrying from the holster. If they wanted to show me their carry gun they had two options...let me draw it for them or go out to their car and unload it. I had way to many loaded guns pointed at me (and one AD in the shop) to allow customers to handle a loaded gun in my store.

 

[Prometheus]

Apparently, Pro, this is not always the case. It might simply be a lack of research and instead, going with the first company they call. Not the smartest decision on anything, but it's not always malicious.

FWIW, INGO member printmitch is the owner of Applied Ballistics in Lafayette. Several months ago, he and his partner were discussing the store's opening and somehow or other, the not-yet-finalized rules of the range were made available for INGO's perusal. IIRC, the fecal matter struck the oscillating cooling device when the range policy that was still under discussion included a line reading (as best I remember it) No loaded guns inside the building, except on the firing line. Our employees and on-duty LEOs exempted.

Ahhh, you are onto another subject entirely, range insurance! The rules for the range are for the range... the shop for the shop ect. ect....

Debs in Hammond has a range and shop. OC is fine in her store with the obvious rule "leave it holstered".

Gotta stay apples to apples

 

[Prometheus]

We would never have opposed open carry in our store but I absolutely forbid anyone removing a gun they were carrying from the holster. If they wanted to show me their carry gun they had two options...let me draw it for them or go out to their car and unload it. I had way to many loaded guns pointed at me (and one AD in the shop) to allow customers to handle a loaded gun in my store.

So carry is ok in the shop provided you don't remove it from the holster? Sounds like a solid decision!

 

[Expat]

I was in Midwest one time and got to see a guy whip his revolver out to show the clerk. He was grubby looking to begin with, then he pulls his pistol out from the waist band of his pants. From the clerk's reaction, I think it was unexpected. I know my hand went to my sidearm not knowing what was about to happen. But it was just some jackanape.

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

Want an interesting reaction? OC into Ludco tomorrow.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

Want an interesting reaction? OC into Ludco tomorrow.

Does Fred have a problem with OC now? I have been in there twice while OCing and not had a problem. I haven't been back again in the last year.

 

[Gungho_1989]

So carry is ok in the shop provided you don't remove it from the holster? Sounds like a solid decision!

I agree with that. I may actually post that in our shop.

 

[bglaze]

Guess who I ran into in Chesterfield?

Tonight, I was Open Carrying my 4" S&W 66 in an OWB Galco Fletch leather holster while I made a quick run into the Friendly Package store in Chesterfield. As I was paying for my tequila at the counter, I heard a voice from behind me say, "What kind of gun you carrying?"

I turned around, and who did I see but Mike himself, the owner of Crackshot Guns.

I smiled and told him what I had on me (a S&W 66 .357 magnum), and I made some comments on how I wish Smith was still making K-frame .357's, etc... We talked 'gun small talk' for a second while we were still standing in front of the cashier. She was listening to the entire conversation with interest.

He then said to me, "You do realize that it's common courtesy to keep that covered up."

My first thoughts when I heard this were, "Maybe this guy really is anti-OC after all."

I said something close to this in as cordial of a tone as I could, "I understand where you are coming from. But gun owners are not criminals, and I don't think we should be forced to cover up our sidearms just because some see it as socially unacceptable."

He asked me if I was from around here, and I told him I was. He told me that he was a gun-shop owner and that he's been in the gun business for over 30 years. Then he said that if I continue to do what I am doing, I am going to get the cops called on me and possibly be in a situation I wish I wasn't in.

I didn't want to have this conversation inside the store right by the cashier who was looking uncomfortable now, so I told him I appreciated the advice, that I respectfully disagreed, but it was nice talking to him nonetheless.

However, my car was parked right outside the door, so as he was walking out I asked him what gun store he owned (I already recognized him from Crackshot, but I was just trying to start the conversation back up).

Of course he replied that he owned Crackshot Guns in Anderson, and he walked over to my car where we began talking again.

I explained to him why I choose to Open Carry, that I am doing it more for the education of the locals who may not know that many law abiding citizens they meet every day are legally carrying guns, and also that it was to help educate the cops who may not be fully aware of the law, etc... I explained that I knew concealed carry offered more tactical advantages to Open Carry, but I was willing to ignore these for the socio-political reasons I had mentioned. I did try, however, to be as courteous and respectful of his initial opinions as possible, because I know where he is coming from, and I know that seeing guns makes a lot of the non-gun community nervous. This is exactly why I Open Carry, though. I want to try to do my part to alleviate that misconception, even if it turns out to be for naught.

We talked for quite a bit more. I told him I had been OCing for about a year and a half. He said he was absolutely surprised I had been OCing in Madison and Delaware county for that long and NOT had the police called on me. I even told him I had successfully OCed in the Chase banks in Yorktown and on Tillotson without any police incident. He was visibly floored at this. I think he may not have even believed me.

He then said, "Do you want to know what that cashier said me after you left?"

I said, "Yes of course."

He said that she had said, "That guy should have his gun taken away from him."

This didn't surprise me, though it did sadden me that these sentiments were out there.

Surprisingly, the cashier from the store after probably seeing us talking, walked out and started talking with us.

She explained that she had grown up around guns. Her father had always had guns around, and he had taught her that any time she wanted to see them she could, but she had to come and ask him first. Apparently her father did a fairly good job at gun education, but he obviously didn't do everything he could to keep the guns appropriately stored away. Because she said when she was 6, after already having these gun talks with her dad, she went into her dad's sock drawer, grabbed his revolver, and pulled the trigger blasting a hole in the bedroom wall. From my perception this had been a huge factor on her current feelings towards handguns. She said that she and her husband currently own long guns, but that they don't feel comfortable owning handguns.

I explained to her that I had a 2 year old boy and a 1 year old girl, and that my guns are either locked up in a 5" tall gun vault to which only I know the combination, or it is on my hip and under my direct supervision.

This was just a side conversation, however, but I was very glad it happened.

Mike went on to say that after talking to me he admired what I was doing, and from his personal perspective he is totally on my side and agrees with what I am doing.

I did tell him about this post. In fact it was one of the first things I mentioned. I asked him if he ever got on the Indiana Gun Owners forums, and he said that he did. I told him that there was a post on here about a guy visiting his shop that overheard some disturbing comments that were very anti-Open Carry. I also told him that if he read it he may realize that a lot of his customers may not agree with such an anti-Open Carry stance as that which was stated in the OP.

I did not tell him that I was the one it had happened to or that I was the original poster. I was honestly just to nervous to say it. So, Mike, if you read this, sorry I didn't just come out and tell you I was the guy who started the thread. And I really do hope he reads this, because it was a great interaction.

Nevertheless, Mike said that he has had many guys Open Carry into his store and that most of them were from out West where OC is more common. He said that he would never kick me out for OCing there. So, at least I got my answer to that! =)

He has also gained back my trust and my business for being a very cordial and open-minded guy. I really appreciated the conversation.

Also, as he was leaving he said, "Make sure to always carry a backup." To which I laughed, and said, "I am..." =)

I told him I was also carrying a Kel-Tec .380 in a SmartCarry holster, and he said, "Oh! I tried to spot one, but I wasn't able to."

He then said, "You know what I'm carrying in my back pocket?"

I shrugged.

He said, "A Kel-Tec .380," and smiled.

 

[thompal]

it seems like there are a lot of anti-gun gun shops down around Indy.

Other than Don's, who?