Guns Shops that aren't willing to deal....

[drillsgt]

So the new guy calls me a dummy right of the starting line.......
Wilson's and Harley's both. Well played sir, well played.

Harley's are overpriced and just break down all the time, get one of them foreign jobs.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

All LGS buy from the distributors at the same price.

This is absolutely false.

 

[churchmouse]

This is absolutely false.

Some people have convinced themselves this is true.

 

[Libertarian01]

I see you have never dealt with WalMart.

If the guns don't sell in the predicted volumes, guess what happens next.

To Kludge,

While I haven't dealt with Walmart beyond as a customer, I have another skill that is equally good: Doug can read!

Specifically, "The Walmart Effect" by Charles Fishman. In this book Mr. Fishman details time and again where Walmart, due to its size and power can dictate prices to suppliers, especially after they have become addicted to the cash flow.

If that isn't enough, in the textbook "Essentials of Strategic Management" by Charles Hill and Garth Jones they back up this idea. On Page #4, in the running case study of Walmart they explain, "As Walmart grew larger, the sheer size and purchasing power of the company enabled it to drive down the prices that it paid suppliers, passing on the savings to customers in the form of lower prices..."

Businesses love consistency! It enables them to plan and make more money by being able to accurately predict future revenue streams along with expenses. A firearms distributor and/or manufacturer are no different. A LGS that buys three (3) Remington shotguns one week, then seven (7) the next week, then zero (0) the week after will be supplied, it is business for the supplier. However, the store that comes along and says, "I want to order ten (10) Remington shotguns every week for the year" is going to be treated better and given a better deal than the first LGS. Even if the larger gunstore isn't as consistent as I am making it, a guy who buys 100 guns a week can demand better prices from the supplier than the smaller guy who buys 20 guns a week. Of course, the guy who buys 100/week is at a disadvantage to the guy above him who orders 500/week, and up the chain it goes.

We live in a world where the Internet allows us to sell to the world, and that is a very good thing! One of my managers had a pristine Volkswagen Beetle convertible that he sold online. His purchaser was a collector in Germany who paid to have it shipped. Had he been limited to selling off the net who knows how long it would have taken him to find a buyer in Fort Wayne, and at a collectors premium price.

At the same time businesses are competing with the world! If we don't like what is sold locally there is literally nothing stopping us from buying from anywhere else on the earth, laws allowing. The LGS is automatically at a disadvantage if they do not take this into account and exploit it! There is absolutely nothing stopping any store from doing what Buds or Century Arms or JG Sales does! It is only the owners drive and risk tolerance that stops them from exploiting customers from all over the state and the country. Then as they grow they will be able to demand better deals just the same as other chaps do.

In the end a business has to compete on some level. Price, service, quality... SOMETHING! If the LGS cannot compete on price it needs to focus on quality and/or service. If it wants to compete on price it needs to focus on scale and efficiency internally to bring prices down. The question becomes, "Why should I choose you? What are you offering me that someone else isn't?" If the business owner cannot instantly answer that, at least for themselves, they shouldn't be in business - and they won't be for long.

Being off of work for several monthes I caught up on some seasons of Robert Irvines "Restaurant Impossible." In this show he goes into a restaurant and in two (2) days tries to turn it around. About 90% of the time he finds the problem is WITH THE OWNERS! It isn't the cooks (directly), it isn't the service (directly). It is owners who have no clue about running a business, they just know they wanted to. I think a lot of small businesses, sadly, operate the same way. Then they struggle for years before going bankrupt and put out of their misery. And I do mean their misery. They are under tremendous stress and strain. These are oftentimes very good people who don't grasp that just because they love doing something doesn't mean they get to go out and do it and make money at it. You have to think of your work as a business! Every single aspect of it. Restaurant Impossible shows people who don't think of it in that way, not really. LGS's are no different. I spoke with a LGS store owner on these boards who said that he stocked things he wouldn't buy due to personal preference but he stocked it because that was what the customers wanted! Good for him! He understood his clientele and focused on making them, NOT him, happy.

For the record I would be in the same boat. I love the olde C&R guns - but I know that wouldn't keep me in business. I would like to offer them, but I would have to focus on the new, tacticool black guns to even have a hope of staying in business.

Going full circle to the OP it sounds like he tried to reach out, if even only a little, by asking the guy to move toward him a little bit by throwing in some ammo. The LGS didn't read his customer very well, therefore made no effort toward service or quality, and lost that customer for at least one (1) sale and maybe many more. Not only that but he failed to realize that one (1) unhappy customer may just go on the internet and gripe about him. In this case it may or may not have been a big deal, but I have seen some complaints on here that are very egregious and have turned off some folks who read them.

Anyway, I have rambled too much. We can solve the rest of the worlds problems down at the Speedway meetup on the 10th.

Regards and Happy New Year,

Doug

 

[ModernGunner]

JMO, but as I don't 'need' another firearm, ever, I'm going to pay what I'm going to pay, and that's it.

If that means I'm ordering online, then that's what it means. If that means a LGS wants to get close, then I'm willing to work with them and buy from that LGS.

All I know is, if there's a firearm I want, there's a legitimate Seller out there willing to take my money. I like buying from the LGS, supporting the 'Mom & Pop' businesses, but in the end it doesn't make all that much difference to me. Once the gun is sitting in the safe (or on my hip, as the case may be), the gun doesn't 'know' where it came from, and doesn't 'care'. It's just a piece of hardware.

I understand full-well empathizing with LGS's. On the other hand, if they CHOOSE to price themselves out of the market, that's THEIR choice.

All the hype about the 'Mom & Pop' stores started w-a-y back when companies like Sears began selling firearms. Hasn't happened yet.

 

[maxmayhem]

Walmart doesn't own merchandise but retailers essentially pay for shelf space

This is spot on!

Walmart is a perfect example of this. Say Remington has a popular shotgun that it costs Remington $100 to manufacture, including both fixed and variable costs. So Remington sells the shotgun for $100 to their distributors. When Walmart approaches Remington they say, "Hey, we want to offer your product to our customer. However, we are willing to pay $95 per product. With that in mind we want to order and pre-order 5,000 per month with a contract for one (1) year. What do you say?"

Remington is now in a bit of a pickle. They will be losing $25,000 per month on the deal, but on the flip side they are guaranteed a cash flow of $475,000 per month for the next twelve (12) monthes. That guaranteed cash flow is a huge deal to them. They may turn down Walmarts offer, or they may decide to take it with the guaranteed cash flow and just spread the $25,000 to their other dealers. They may even try to improve efficiency and bring their cost down to $95 per shotgun. Whatever they do Walmart is in the catbirds seat by buying in bulk.

The smaller retailer cannot compete with a large company on price, it is impossible. What the LGS needs to do is offer much better service, variety, or something to keep you - the customer - returning time and time again. If they are unwilling or unable to do so they will eventually succumb to extinction evolution places on the free market.

I think that if I ran a gunstore I would also not negotiate on price - ever! It creates too much of a headache for the book keeping to even begin to understand how much profit you are making (or losing) on every sale. The ability to budget and make plans for the future would be much harder if the price wasn't the price.

I would try to regularly use a SWOT analysis to improve my services offered to keep people coming back.

It sounds like in the OP's story the store owner wasn't able to compete solely on price (I get that), but was also unable to compete on service in regards to customer satisfaction. If he is failing on both price AND service it will only be a matter of time before he goes out of business - in which case this will open up a new market for someone else to move in and run the LGS in a better way.

Regards and Happy Holidays,

Doug

 

[maxmayhem]

Local gun shopsare generally a rip...not all but they seem to think it's my duty to keep them in business...bzgunz is where I did a lot of my stuff through after getting treated like crap by greenwood gun shops...not all but good deals are few and far between....one guy at outdoorsman liked my revolver and offered me 125 for it with this concerned look on his face...at that rate I would pistol whip myself if I sold a 600 gun for that...so they are full of crap..online is pretty much all I do....down here in ocala, fl itis much worse...they want 450 for a used /beat up keltec 380...it's absurd

 

[DoggyDaddy]

So the new guy calls me a dummy right of the starting line.......
Wilson's and Harley's both. Well played sir, well played.

That user seems to have "poofed"...

 

[96ramair]

I know for a fact that some online retailers are selling some guns cheaper then my lgs can even buy then for... So to assume that shop even paid the same price as your online place is wrong..

 

[churchmouse]

That user seems to have "poofed"...

Yeah. He went through the threads spreading joy and love. Did not last out the night.....By by.

 

[richardraw316]

Most of the time i shop at one shop. No secret , its bradis. Around 90% if the time if i am starring at a gun or rifle a certain way the dealer i am working with will say " it you want that gun today I can let you take it for X amount less." this usually is around 20-30 less than marked and i am usually satisfied with that.

 

[churchmouse]

Most of the time i shop at one shop. No secret , its bradis. Around 90% if the time if i am starring at a gun or rifle a certain way the dealer i am working with will say " it you want that gun today I can let you take it for X amount less." this usually is around 20-30 less than marked and i am usually satisfied with that.

2 of the shops I use has the guns marked so they can work with you. They experience a large off the street crowd that may or may not need to own guns......

 

[Indynic]

After reading this whole thread I don't understand the big secret is about what you are buying and what store you're talking about. If you feel you've been so mistreated why would you hesitate to name store and why what you are buying is such a big secret. It might give everyone a little better perspective if the details were more clear.
[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT]Ruger MK III, M&P & 1911mechanic
NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] –[/FONT] Certified Glock armorer

I appreciate all the discussion here. The pot roast talk motivated me to make some stew today!

I'm not going to mention the specific shop because I'm not trying to single out the shop in a negative manner. The interaction I had at the shop was polite and courdial. I have no issues with the shop, except that I feel their price was a little high and I wanted to see some effort on their part to work with me in some capacity. I didn't get that effort and I was disappointed in that.

My final word on this:

When it comes to MY money, if I don't like the price being offered and the offering party's stance is "its my way or the highway," I'm going to choose the highway 100% of the time. I don't want to purchase online. I was really hoping to make that deal, but I will wait a few weeks and see what I may come across at the Indy 1500.

Thanks again.

 

[drillsgt]

To Kludge,

While I haven't dealt with Walmart beyond as a customer, I have another skill that is equally good: Doug can read!

Specifically, "The Walmart Effect" by Charles Fishman. In this book Mr. Fishman details time and again where Walmart, due to its size and power can dictate prices to suppliers, especially after they have become addicted to the cash flow.

If that isn't enough, in the textbook "Essentials of Strategic Management" by Charles Hill and Garth Jones they back up this idea. On Page #4, in the running case study of Walmart they explain, "As Walmart grew larger, the sheer size and purchasing power of the company enabled it to drive down the prices that it paid suppliers, passing on the savings to customers in the form of lower prices..."

Businesses love consistency! It enables them to plan and make more money by being able to accurately predict future revenue streams along with expenses. A firearms distributor and/or manufacturer are no different. A LGS that buys three (3) Remington shotguns one week, then seven (7) the next week, then zero (0) the week after will be supplied, it is business for the supplier. However, the store that comes along and says, "I want to order ten (10) Remington shotguns every week for the year" is going to be treated better and given a better deal than the first LGS. Even if the larger gunstore isn't as consistent as I am making it, a guy who buys 100 guns a week can demand better prices from the supplier than the smaller guy who buys 20 guns a week. Of course, the guy who buys 100/week is at a disadvantage to the guy above him who orders 500/week, and up the chain it goes.

We live in a world where the Internet allows us to sell to the world, and that is a very good thing! One of my managers had a pristine Volkswagen Beetle convertible that he sold online. His purchaser was a collector in Germany who paid to have it shipped. Had he been limited to selling off the net who knows how long it would have taken him to find a buyer in Fort Wayne, and at a collectors premium price.

At the same time businesses are competing with the world! If we don't like what is sold locally there is literally nothing stopping us from buying from anywhere else on the earth, laws allowing. The LGS is automatically at a disadvantage if they do not take this into account and exploit it! There is absolutely nothing stopping any store from doing what Buds or Century Arms or JG Sales does! It is only the owners drive and risk tolerance that stops them from exploiting customers from all over the state and the country. Then as they grow they will be able to demand better deals just the same as other chaps do.

In the end a business has to compete on some level. Price, service, quality... SOMETHING! If the LGS cannot compete on price it needs to focus on quality and/or service. If it wants to compete on price it needs to focus on scale and efficiency internally to bring prices down. The question becomes, "Why should I choose you? What are you offering me that someone else isn't?" If the business owner cannot instantly answer that, at least for themselves, they shouldn't be in business - and they won't be for long.

Being off of work for several monthes I caught up on some seasons of Robert Irvines "Restaurant Impossible." In this show he goes into a restaurant and in two (2) days tries to turn it around. About 90% of the time he finds the problem is WITH THE OWNERS! It isn't the cooks (directly), it isn't the service (directly). It is owners who have no clue about running a business, they just know they wanted to. I think a lot of small businesses, sadly, operate the same way. Then they struggle for years before going bankrupt and put out of their misery. And I do mean their misery. They are under tremendous stress and strain. These are oftentimes very good people who don't grasp that just because they love doing something doesn't mean they get to go out and do it and make money at it. You have to think of your work as a business! Every single aspect of it. Restaurant Impossible shows people who don't think of it in that way, not really. LGS's are no different. I spoke with a LGS store owner on these boards who said that he stocked things he wouldn't buy due to personal preference but he stocked it because that was what the customers wanted! Good for him! He understood his clientele and focused on making them, NOT him, happy.

For the record I would be in the same boat. I love the olde C&R guns - but I know that wouldn't keep me in business. I would like to offer them, but I would have to focus on the new, tacticool black guns to even have a hope of staying in business.

Going full circle to the OP it sounds like he tried to reach out, if even only a little, by asking the guy to move toward him a little bit by throwing in some ammo. The LGS didn't read his customer very well, therefore made no effort toward service or quality, and lost that customer for at least one (1) sale and maybe many more. Not only that but he failed to realize that one (1) unhappy customer may just go on the internet and gripe about him. In this case it may or may not have been a big deal, but I have seen some complaints on here that are very egregious and have turned off some folks who read them.

Anyway, I have rambled too much. We can solve the rest of the worlds problems down at the Speedway meetup on the 10th.

Regards and Happy New Year,

Doug

Doug made some good points. I worked at the highest volume store in MI. We had been in business since 1972 and in that time had developed long standing relationships with manufacturers and distributors. We were able to order direct from browning, remington, benelli, beretta, hk, bushmaster, kimber, and a few others. In fact quite often if a customer was looking for something the mfg told them to call us. We would get first dibs on closeouts that we would buy in volume like when browning/winchester were closing out all the model 52 rifles, or reissues of the model 12 shotguns etc, we would just stack them upstairs and put a few out here and there or put some on gunbroker when that started. These relationships allowed us to get lower prices than a smaller LGS would get but even more important was the terms we would get which were quite long and allowed us to pay them back over a longer period of time. These terms allowed us to go to the shot show and place ridiculous orders for the year but as the stock came in we had a long time to actually pay for it. Another reason for their success was the one year layaway which was unprecedented for the area. We asked for 10% down and one payment a month and most didn't keep it in a year anyway as they tended to be a little impatient, I know I am. But this allowed the average joe to get a more expensive browning or that wilson combat (with standard guns there was no extra fee but for some like say a Grade 6 browning or a wilson there was an extra charge). Most dealers have at most a 90 day layaway which is still pretty useless if you want a more expensive gun, probably good for a glock but if you can't pay cash outright than 90 days won't help much if it's more expensive than that. The lower prices and layaway brought in tons of customers but we sucked at customer service and that was their reputation that still holds to this day. The owner was great but his sons that came in after he did all the hard work treated customers like crap like they were an inconvenience and there attitude was where else are they going to go? Things there are different now I can see it when I stop in, less customers and they got rid of the year layaway, probably the biggest reason customers put up with their nonsense. The closest rival Williams which some may know from their sights etc. in the meantime revamped and expanded their store, got more competitive with pricing and now is building an indoor range took the initiative and is very busy when I stop in. My old store is still dingy and hasn't changed much since I left in 2003, the last son is retiring today and a nephew is taking over but he's young and hasn't had a good role model so who knows. So yes older established gun shops do get better pricing/terms from the distributors but newer shops can compete in different ways and take advantage when the older shops start becoming complacent and take customers for granted.

 

[Robert Richardson]

If you want the gun so bad, then buy it and pay the extra money, If you don't, then don't buy it. Simple. No need to whine about it.

 

[drillsgt]

If you want the gun so bad, then buy it and pay the extra money, If you don't, then don't buy it. Simple. No need to whine about it.

The OP didn't buy it and the dealer was left with an overpriced gun gathering dust still looking for a sucker.

 

[CindyE]

I think it comes down to that old adage, "treat others how you would like to be treated", for both buyer and seller. I support LGSs (those within about 30 miles), but those that show their appreciation and willingness to deal get my business the most. I never mention online prices, but I do make offers or ask if they can throw something else in, make me a deal on a holster, gun case, etc. I usually get them to budge somewhat.

 

[CindyE]

Another factor that plays into my situation, perhaps more than most, is that it is much harder for a woman to even get waited on at a gun shop or a gun show. T-Star and I both have had the same experience at NW IN LGS's and gun shows. The salespeople will overlook us and fall over themselves to wait on male customers. We may know exactly what we want and have cash in hand, but we walk out of many places without even being helped. At least with online vendors, everyone is treated equally.

I have experienced that, and still do occasionally. My favorite LGSs love to see me though...I think!
It annoys me when they act like I don't know anything about firearms, and I already know what I want. One time I was buying ammo, and a salesman assumed it was for my husband, and asked "do you know what kind he wants?"
Many, many years ago, when I was shopping for my first gun, a LGS owner told me he hated selling guns to women, because we usually won't use it and get it taken from us by the bad guy. I told him I'd have no problem using a gun to defend myself or family. Then I looked elsewhere. Recently reconnected with the guy who sold me my first gun, and hubby and I are now friends with him. Dan, if you're reading this, thanks, & I forgive you for selling me that crappy .22!

 

[Snapdragon]

I think it comes down to that old adage, "treat others how you would like to be treated", for both buyer and seller. I support LGSs (those within about 30 miles), but those that show their appreciation and willingness to deal get my business the most. I never mention online prices, but I do make offers or ask if they can throw something else in, make me a deal on a holster, gun case, etc. I usually get them to budge somewhat.

I'm just happy if I can persuade them to stop shooting the **** with the good ol boys long enough to show me something.

 

[CindyE]

I'm just happy if I can persuade them to stop shooting the **** with the good ol boys long enough to show me something.

Yeah, I get that sometimes too, until they get to know me...if I give them that chance. I've walked out before. It helps that one of my favorites is family-owned with women who know guns.