Home Defense;Precision required

[rvb]

I know Aimpoints are the Bee's Knees, but one of the advantages of EOTechs

i'm rockin it old school w/ irons!

-rvb

ps... a tip w/ irons (you probably already know this)... you can make up the hold off by putting the front post just on TOP of the rear apperature (looking over the rear ap). puts the round about dead on at 10yds w. a 50yd zero.

 

[Dolton916]

My stairway coming to the second floor makes a perfect kill box and opens to a large landing at the top, I can stay in the dark at the top in three different areas without being seen. The stairs also create an angle that sends any missed rounds through a outside wall directly into my porch floor. A perfect back stop for my 870 12ga, 8 shells will definitely clear the area, But I prefer the .45, she holds 16 and will do the job just fine with less damage to my house.

 

[churchmouse]

I noticed but was speechless. It's beyond belief.

Yeah, me too but hey.....his poll.

 

[lovemachine]

Lots of reasons...


1) capacity. I can get 8 rounds in a 1911, I don't need a firearm 3 feet long to hold that many rounds. (17 in my G19, 28 in the AR).

2) recoil. the wife needs to be able to use it too, and not be afraid of it. She shoots well, but doesn't like a lot of recoil or noise. She handles the G19 fine. I'm waiting on paperwork to help w/ the noise from the AR so she will be willing to practice with it more.

3) reliability. I ran a pump 12ga in a 3-gun a few years back. I learned real fast that it's very easy to short stroke and screw yourself if you get into an awkward/crowded position and/or aren't very familiar/practiced w/ working the action. There are some reliable semis, but you have to know/test your gear as some really need a 'correct/ideal' mount to cycle right.

4) aiming. There's a lot more to know/remember than "bullet goes where the sight is." For the most part w/ an AR you can ignore holdover, unless you need a super precise shot like in this scenario. W. a shotgun w/ a bead, there's more to an accurate shot (eg shouldered properly, how much of the vent rib you see, etc). The wife isn't going to practice as much as me, and that's harder to get down. Heck I borrowed a buddies M1 for a 3-gun match recently, and while getting familiar w/ it my first slug was under the target about 2' at ~15yds. had to adjust, learn, and apply under pressure. I'm looking at shotguns for 3-gun game use, and I'm going to be looking into a post/apperature setup for sure. Not to mention there's the whole pattern thing to be aware of.

5) reloads. reloading a shotgun sucks.

I'm sure I could come up w/ more reasons shotguns suck. and yea, there are a couple of "pros" that could be listed. But hell, I'd prefer my 642.

Before bed time when lounging in my family room, the AR is close by. Up in bed, the G19 is close. both are part of my plans. I sold my 590 pump.

-rvb

Makes total sense. Thank you.

 

[Steve MI]

these are all training issues, say you take your 18 inch barrel 870 and a 12-13 lop stock and shoulder it unloaded with the muzzle touching a safe wall.
then at the same position draw your 5 inch 1911 tell me the difference.....
I can tell you there is none to almost none at all....

these are all training issues and mental issues

 

[rvb]

these are all training issues and mental issues

Some are, some aren't.

Of those that are training issues, I admit I just don't have interest in putting in the effort. imo, the only thing a shotgun does "better" is put more energy on target (and gives less-than lethal options for LE). (Oh, and I'm told pumps have the magic chachunk sound that causes bad guys to wet themselves and flee). I'd rather to continue to work on my pistol and AR; and my wife will practice with those. It also seems to me achieving the same level of proficiency with a shotgun takes more effort than a pistol or AR.

those issues that aren't training issues... I'll never train a shotgun to hold more ammo and no matter how much you train, reloading a shotgun is always pathetically slow compared to reloading a mag fed gun. Probably not an issue is most self-defense situations, but it's a consideration...

Full extension may be about the same between a pistol and a shotgun, but it's much easier to pull the gun in and fight from retention with a pistol.

I know my opinion may be in the minority.... I'm ok with that.

-rvb

 

[ifr2]

The 870 Wingmaster is going to come out.

 

[Steve MI]

again all those are a training issue
Nothing wrong with it iam a big fan of the M4 for a house gun so how is it any easier to use a carbine in close retention shooting? than a shotgun its not short stocking or flat stocking the gun both carbine and shotgun have been done for years.. reducing the length by almost 12 inches and offering great control and defense,

i can not find a case where a homeowner has had to reload a shotgun in a home defense shooting...
so you think its simpler to get good hits and accuracy in home defense with a handgun vs a shotgun

its all good I like these topics both have strength and weakness but i can tell you the shotgun shines as HD weapon on many fronts..

 

[Jackson]

No one has mentioned the #4 vs 00 buck. Does #4 really have that much less penetration in walls? How is its terminal performance on people compared to 00?

I have been lead to believe that a 55gr 5.56 round is less likely to over penetrate than either a handgun or a shotgun load. I have not done any testing of my own. Does anyone care to comment on these items?

 

[Steve MI]

Real World .223 Testing

 

[Steve MI]

i can tell you that federals LE127rs slug has even less penetration than there buckshot load

 

[Jackson]

Real World .223 Testing

Thanks for posting. This confirms what I've heard regarding 5.56 vs various pistol bullets. I will have to look around for tests between #4 and 00 buck shot. That was a specific claim in the video (which I am not refuting). So it would be interesting to see how much difference there is between the two.

 

[Jackson]

I found this as well:
The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

Not so scientific as the test Steve posted, but its some information. I think the bottom line is any worthwhile defense load will penetrate most residential walls. The shooter is responsible for his/her bullet when it leaves the barrel.

 

[Steve MI]

again i shoot number Either federal #1 buck or federal 00 8 pellet LE flight control load

at home distance it makes no matter to be honest in every class i poll the max shot is less 10 yards or less on a 90% average

 

[Steve MI]

Law Enforcement - Federal Premium LE, Speer LE, BLACKHAWK!, Eagle - Shotshell

 

[MCgrease08]

I currently use a handgun. I voted pump shotgun because that's why I would prefer, I just don't have one. Forget precision, if someone busts in at 3 am it's gonna be messy regardless of the gun you're using. If prefer to keep most of the mess inside the house if at all possible.

 

[jdhaines]

I voted handgun. I'm not confident enough in tight shooting with a rifle (hold-over, optic height, etc) yet. Hoping to rectify that over the next year or so.

 

[rvb]

again all those are a training issue
Nothing wrong with it iam a big fan of the M4 for a house gun so how is it any easier to use a carbine in close retention shooting? than a shotgun its not short stocking or flat stocking the gun both carbine and shotgun have been done for years.. reducing the length by almost 12 inches and offering great control and defense,

you're hung up on a straw man. no where in my original bullets did I list length. When I mentioned capacity I simply made a snarky comment about the number of rounds it holds being related to the length of the gun (which is true), and you've run with it. Is it harder than a pistol and can I pull a pistol in closer? or course, or a long gun wouldn't require the techniques you mention vs just pulling it in like a pistol. I purposely didn't originally comment about length advantages because I was comparing to a carbine as well as a pistol.

we'll just have to disagree that all of my points are training issues. Regardless of how many hours of training I put in, the shotgun won't hold more ammo, won't have less recoil than an AR or pistol, won't reload faster than a mag fed gun. I can train to mitigate those issues (or assume I won't need the capacity/reload), but I can't train so much they become advantages over pistol/carbine. points 3 and 4 are training issues, and I think I said as much in my original bullets. (although I consider issues like the posibility of shortstroking a pump more than a training issue because putting a fresh round in the chamber in an AR or pistol isn't even something I have to train for... )

yes, I think it's simpler to get good hits in the given scenario (nearby no-shoot, precise shot required) w/ a pistol [or AR] than a shotgun. I agree w/ enough training and knowledge of your gear it's plenty doable w/ a shotgun, but there's more to know, more training required to get to the same level of confidence. Same reason I gave the edge to a pistol over an AR as there is more to know w/ the AR (holdover).

This thread was about what would 'you' use and why and I've shared my answer/reasoning. There's not a right or wrong answer when it comes down to what each of us is familiar with and comfortable with. If all a person has ever shot is shotguns and they've never touched an AR, then an AR isn't the right answer for them.



-rvb

 

[Steve MI]

i agree on many, your post #20 in this thread the 1st comment was you dont need a gun 3 feet long that holds 8 rounds....etc.

also shortstroking is an issue more of LOP and fit than anything else a lot of time,
holdover isnt that hard either with an ar based rifle again its practice its training... like malfunctions or reloading or any other task implied


the issue is on the internet only one sides usually get debated or talked about in these topics what about for those who dont have an M4/AR
or those with bad eyesight and cant shoot a handgun as easy?

what iam saying is there is no perfect one stop shop choice, all have there place and all require knowledge and training to a degree

 

[ViperJock]

Poll invalid: No bacon choice.

Thats because all choices include Bacon. See the OP.

So vote is for what you would prefer. If you would prefer something you don't own, you can still choose that option.