Homeless man shot to death by police while “illegally camping” in NM foothills

[phylodog]

Personally, I think the crime in question should be the threshhold for how far things are pushed. Illegal camping resulting in a man being shot to death is an escalation that should have never been. That's my opinion. You are certainly welcome to your own. He was a man with mental issues. Perhaps a taser could have been deployed and everyone would have went home/to jail that night.

The reasonableness standard provides just what you speak of. It compares the governments interest in making a seizure versus the type and severity of force used. Had the officers just walked up to him and shot him dead that would clearly be considered unreasonable. The man pulled knives and made threats toward the officers which escalates the situation and has a dramatic impact in the above mentioned comparison. I'm not saying I agree with the way this went down, I see some very real issues personally. That does not change the fact that the man could have been cooperative and expecting the police to simply go away when someone decides they don't want to be bothered is not reasonable either.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Did you notice that Officer Keith Sandy was so corrupt he had to be fired from the State Police? But that didn't stop Albuquerque from picking him up. The hire (among others) was so controversial that the chief promised he would never allow the Sandy or his disgraced colleagues to handle a badge or a gun.

Sandy was never prosecuted. For the past five (5) years he has been APD and Albaquirky City Council has done jack about it and this shows . . . what exactly?

If you want to disregard Sandy's testimony, which has not been revealed as of yet, fine. The video shows your boy disrespecting the sacred property rights of others, making threats to the officers and then brandishing deadly weapons. That will get you shot by a reasonable person.

Hey, right out of the textbook, like Kirk said.

Self-defense is an essential Liberty interest. Why do you hate Liberty, ram?

 

[HeadlessRoland]

I see Native Americans saying to each other "See, if we'd have done that, right from the beginning, things would be different."

I see American Indians facepalming at use of 'Native Americans'.

 

[Mark 1911]

It may have started as illegal camping, but ended with a disturbed individual threatening the police. The police didn't shoot him for illegal camping. Threatening the police is not going to end well regardless of the location. Sad, but don't see where the police are to blame at that point.

 

[KLB]

Here, I'll rewrite it another way:

Police in Albuquerque, NM received a report of a violent felon who had set up an illegal campsite outside of the city. They responded to the scene (as they often do when their assistance is requested) and attempted to negotiate with the man for over three hours. During negotiations the violent felon made repeated threats toward the officers and displayed knives. Officers were aware of the mans propensity for violence and attempted to calm the man with techniques learned through training they had received in dealing with the mentally disturbed. Unfortunately the man refused to cooperate and when officers felt all possible techniques had been exhausted they were forced to move in on the suspect. A flash bang diversionary device was utilized in hopes of disorienting the man and a police K9 was sent in but the man was undeterred and pulled two knives on the officers. The K9 officer moved in to gain control over his dog and when the other officers felt he was being threatened they were forced to shoot the man. Police would like to remind citizens that simple cooperation from this violent man would have prevented him from being injured.

I can agree with all of that.

My only question is why they flashbang and attack him after he seems to be cooperating?

 

[churchmouse]

Over three hours, multiple death threats towards the LEO's, two or more knives and in the end failed to follow their orders. Who knows what he was going for? The unarmed canine officer was less than 8 feet away so they had to fire to protect him. A man with a knife can quickly kill another man who is less than 8 feet away right?

21 ft. rule is a real thing. A properly motivated man can close that gap from a standing start very quickly.
8ft. is distance most anybody can cover rapidly.
Not defending situation but he was threatening and who knows what else he could or would come up with.

Mentally ill are not well cared for in this country. So many of the mass killings are done by those with a long paper trail of mental instability.

 

[rambone]

Had the officers just walked up to him and shot him dead that would clearly be considered unreasonable. The man pulled knives and made threats toward the officers which escalates the situation and has a dramatic impact in the above mentioned comparison.

Interestingly the knives did not appear until a bomb went off in his face. What would you do if someone threw a grenade at you 10 feet from where you sleep?

Self-defense only seems to work in one direction. A knife or a "possible" gun anywhere within the vision of a cop is grounds to open fire. But half a dozen shouldered rifles, an attack dog, and an explosion at your feet is not grounds for any self-defense if you are a bum in the desert. In fact, the reports will list HIM as the attacker. Ha!

I'm not saying I agree with the way this went down, I see some very real issues personally.

Huh... You didn't mention any issues in your press release. Do you normally perform PR for things you disagree with?

 

[steveh_131]

He's literally turning away from the police when he is shot. And crouching towards the ground.

How does this indicate a threat?

We already have a conclusive youtube video. Now I just need to go find some tweets so I can determine the real truth.

 

[rambone]

People don't want homeless people laying on the sidewalks. Apparently its not even good enough if they wander off into the desert and sleep on some rocks. The control freaks would prefer he go get on food stamps, public housing, and collect welfare checks. Living alone in the hills is unacceptable.

BTW he shares collective ownership over the land he was sleeping on so there is no trespassing issue. It is "public" land and he is a member of the public.

 

[phylodog]

Interestingly the knives did not appear until a bomb went off in his face. What would you do if someone threw a grenade at you 10 feet from where you sleep?

Self-defense only seems to work in one direction. A knife or a "possible" gun anywhere within the vision of a cop is grounds to open fire. But half a dozen shouldered rifles, an attack dog, and an explosion at your feet is not grounds for any self-defense if you are a bum in the desert. In fact, the reports will list HIM as the attacker. Ha!


Huh... You didn't mention any issues in your press release. Do you normally perform PR for things you disagree with?

I wouldn't have let it get to that point. The fact that it is close to where he sleeps is completely irrelevant unless of course you are still attempting to garner emotional responses from your audience. I applaud your persistence.

If the police are lawfully placed and giving lawful commands you have no legal standing to present them with a deadly force threat. The courts are pretty clearly on the side of law enforcement on this.

My press release is just as well written as yours. I was making a point about your continued, relentless, never ending attempt to tug at the emotions of others while smearing the truth with creative word smithing. If you have a valid complaint with something, your tactics shouldn't be necessary. I'm making no attempts to provide PR for these officers and I would like to think I would have handled it differently. I'm all for having an adult discussion about it but you won't find me reading your drivel and tearing up.

I know it must get frustrating but I ain't this guy

 

[phylodog]

BTW he shares collective ownership over the land he was sleeping on so there is no trespassing issue. It is "public" land and he is a member of the public.

Is there info in the stories about the land? I didn't catch it in the video if there was, curious if it was public or private, state or federal, etc..

 

[rambone]

I wouldn't have let it get to that point.

That's ok, we'll skip the discussion of self defense at your home. Let's all remember that the police were victimized, after they literally woke up their attacker in his bed.

If the police are lawfully placed and giving lawful commands you have no legal standing to present them with a deadly force threat. The courts are pretty clearly on the side of law enforcement on this.

Well if you want to talk about justice there is no point bringing up B.S. permits and court decisions. They are irrelevant unless you are attempting to garner emotional responses with an appeal to authority.

My press release is just as well written as yours. I was making a point about your continued, relentless, never ending attempt to tug at the emotions of others while smearing the truth with creative word smithing. If you have a valid complaint with something, your tactics shouldn't be necessary. I'm making no attempts to provide PR for these officers and I would like to think I would have handled it differently. I'm all for having an adult discussion about it but you won't find me reading your drivel and tearing up.

Lol, yes you are quite skilled at wordsmithing yourself. That's why you repeat "violent felon" and "lawful orders" over and over and write that the cops were "forced" to shoot the man.

And yet in the next breath you say you would have handled it differently. Apparently they weren't exactly forced to kill him. There were other solutions. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

Is there info in the stories about the land? I didn't catch it in the video if there was, curious if it was public or private, state or federal, etc..

“Camping is not permitted in Open Space without a permit,” the City of Albuquerque states on its website.

They take their camping permits very seriously.

 

[Zoub]

He's literally turning away from the police when he is shot. And crouching towards the ground.

How does this indicate a threat?

We already have a conclusive youtube video. Now I just need to go find some tweets so I can determine the real truth.

The only time I EVER let my guard down in life the other guy was turning away, I woke up in the hospital.

After that, for me, if I was within arms reach of someone it was only because I was beating them unconscious or at least into submission. That one event in my youth shaped me for life, more than seeing two people shot to death at two different times. More than actually being stabbed because the guy that got me, I never saw it coming. My safe distance, where I know for a fact I will react to someone moving, IMHO too quickly towards me, is about 15 feet. When I turned 40 my rule was I will never go to hand to hand if possible. Things hurt too much and I just was not up for that anymore. Now at 50 I prefer the reach of a long gun over a handgun. Handguns are for Oh **** moments.

Three hour standoff, fatigue and stress, the guy just declared he had a right to kill the LEO's, surprisingly the flash bang failed (open ground diminishes them?). Dog goes in harms way, you end up that close to each other, its now about personal survival. Its hard to second guess trigger time and chain of events in tenths of a second. Simple fact is, he has knives, he may have guns.

I just think it never should have went 3 hours or turned into a CQB thing with dogs and guns. They had time to line up more than one less than lethal option and go to town on the guy. Multiple stun greandes and bean bag loads. No need to go close to him. Stay out in long gun territory. I think SWAT tactics used on civillians and way too many SWAT teams in the first place makes it more and more the norm to force confrontations into violence.

There are no winners in this killing.

 

[phylodog]

That's ok, we'll skip the discussion of self defense at your home. Let's all remember that the police were victimized, after they literally woke up their attacker in his bed.


Well if you want to talk about justice there is no point bringing up B.S. permits and court decisions. They are irrelevant unless you are attempting to garner emotional responses with an appeal to authority.


Lol, yes you are quite skilled at wordsmithing yourself. That's why you repeat "violent felon" and "lawful orders" over and over and write that the cops were "forced" to shoot the man.

And yet in the next breath you say you would have handled it differently. Apparently they weren't exactly forced to kill him. There were other solutions. Talk about cognitive dissonance.




“Camping is not permitted in Open Space without a permit,” the City of Albuquerque states on its website.

They take their camping permits very seriously.

Perhaps I should have written my version in purple for you? I didn't think it necessary but apparently it was, my bad.

He wasn't shot because he was camping without a permit. Refusal to accept that is a conscious decision you are making and the torment you experience is at your own hand. Albuquerque may have very valid reasons for limiting open air camping in their community, like preventing thousands of illegal immigrants from clogging their community. If the citizens find it excessive I guess they could get it changed. Refusal to adhere to societal rules is a choice with consequences but there is always an alternative. He had ample opportunities to surrender and work it out in the three hours leading up to his death. Just as the officers had opportunities to handle it differently in an attempt to prevent his death. There was plenty of wrong to go around.

 

[JMoses]

Is that attorney from the news clip rambone??

 

[rambone]

Is that attorney from the news clip rambone??

If it were me, I wouldn't have said that I had never seen anything like this.

 

[steveh_131]

Today I learned from lawyers and cops that shooting a guy in the back as he turns away and crouches towards the ground is Ok as long as he is holding a knife and is within 10 feet of me.

 

[abigbadzebra]

Somebody already brought it up.. but I do wonder why non-lethal avenues weren't pursued. Seems this would have been a perfect time to attempt to use a taser. Killing a man should be a last resort, IMO.

 

[steveh_131]

Somebody already brought it up.. but I do wonder why non-lethal avenues weren't pursued. Seems this would have been a perfect time to attempt to use a taser. Killing a man should be a last resort, IMO.

Oh don't worry. They shot him full of beanbags and let the dog feast on his leg while he was laying there motionless and dying.

 

[Birds Away]

Today I learned from lawyers and cops that shooting a guy in the back as he turns away and crouches towards the ground is Ok as long as he is holding a knife and is within 10 feet of me.

No, for that you would go to prison for a very long time at the very least.