Homeless man shot to death by police while “illegally camping” in NM foothills

[Kirk Freeman]

I am not questioning this guy was loco but where did he have a right to be? He obviously has no home and technically none of us do.

Any place where the property owner allows him to be. The property owner of the city park wanted him to leave. Boyd wanted to play games and threaten the officers. Boyd wanted to fight; he was really bad at it.

Isn't it funny on INGO how property rights are important until they interfere with anarchy?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

yeah, they used them beanbag rounds real effectively.... after he had 6 holes through him...

Yeah, the police should have shot the knives out of his hands. I mean, the Cisco Kid used to do it, why can't Officer Pukemeyer and Schmuckatelli?

 

[rambone]

 

[TMU317]

yeah, they used them beanbag rounds real effectively.... after he had 6 holes through him...

Well, he still had the knife in his hand and I would bet they didn't want to walk up on him while the knife was still in his hand. Would you rather them put a few more lethal rounds in him?

 

[Shadow8088]

isn't the general idea to try the less lethal options first? I mean, they had 3 hours to try and talk him down...

 

[Disposable Heart]

Have a strong feeling that this, in another area, would have been solved 2.5 hours earlier with a Taser and a guy sleeping it off in a holding cell.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the sheer amount of violence leveled at a man with a knife, out in the open, trying to camp. Obviously mentally ill (or the article says he had issues), so I still fail to see how this didn't end with non-lethal. What was it about the situation causing the officer's force continuum to close SO rapidly that gunfire, despite SEVERAL VARIED non-lethal items at their disposal, was required?
Let's review the things here, the police had:
Superior numbers
Distance
The man wasn't moving his position, so they could have surrounded him (albeit this would be detrimental if you wanted to use a high speed, RD equipped, railed AR on the guy... as in the video)
A VARIETY of non-lethal methods (practically two of them hanging off the belt/shoulders of one officer alone...)
Time

Still kinda shocked at the level of violence expended. Would love to see their continuum of physical force to see if it jumps from verbal commands to deadly force, or are there more stages in between for this particular department?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

isn't the general idea to try the less lethal options first?

No.

If you are in fear of serious bodily injury or death, there is no need to try less lethal options first.

 

[Shadow8088]

No.

If you are in fear of serious bodily injury or death, there is no need to try less lethal options first.

no one was in fear of serious bodily injury or death until dip**** lobbed a grenade at him and they unleashed Officer Chompy...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Still kinda shocked at the level of violence expended. Would love to see their continuum of physical force to see if it jumps from verbal commands to deadly force, or are there more stages in between for this particular department?

That is the concern with APD and thus the DOJ investigation.

The department has a reputation for being dicks and they get in a lot of fights. It impacts their overall credibility to be sure.

This was a legal shoot but because of APD's reputation there will be a great deal of conference room table running.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

no one was in fear of serious bodily injury or death until dip**** lobbed a grenade at him and they unleashed Officer Chompy

You did see Boyd's two knives, right?

 

[TMU317]

Have a strong feeling that this, in another area, would have been solved 2.5 hours earlier with a Taser and a guy sleeping it off in a holding cell.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the sheer amount of violence leveled at a man with a knife, out in the open, trying to camp. Obviously mentally ill (or the article says he had issues), so I still fail to see how this didn't end with non-lethal. What was it about the situation causing the officer's force continuum to close SO rapidly that gunfire, despite SEVERAL VARIED non-lethal items at their disposal, was required?
Let's review the things here, the police had:
Superior numbers
Distance
The man wasn't moving his position, so they could have surrounded him (albeit this would be detrimental if you wanted to use a high speed, RD equipped, railed AR on the guy... as in the video)
A VARIETY of non-lethal methods (practically two of them hanging off the belt/shoulders of one officer alone...)
Time

Still kinda shocked at the level of violence expended. Would love to see their continuum of physical force to see if it jumps from verbal commands to deadly force, or are there more stages in between for this particular department?

The standard that the Supreme Court has set for law enforcement in regards to use of force is the reasonableness standard. See Graham v. Connor.

 

[Shadow8088]

they were standing 15 feet or more from him... beanbag his ass until he drops them and move in.. how difficult is this for you to understand.. lethal force wasn't warranted until the OFFICERS THEMSELVES put themselves in danger...

hell, taze him till he's drooling into the dirt...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

they were standing 15 feet or more from him

And so? Need we run the Tueller Drill videos? Even though Boyd obviously enjoyed burritos, he was well within stabbing range of the officers.

beanbag his ass until he drops them and move in

Boyd took six (6) bean bags rounds and yet still brandished the knives.

how difficult is this for you to understand.. lethal force wasn't warranted until the OFFICERS THEMSELVES put themselves in danger...

Lethal force is warranted when the officers reasonably believed to be in fear of serious bodily injury or death.

hell, taze him till he's drooling into the dirt

There is no requirement to do so when deadly force was necessary.

 

[steveh_131]

Yeah, the police should have shot the knives out of his hands. I mean, the Cisco Kid used to do it, why can't Officer Pukemeyer and Schmuckatelli?

Kirk, let's have a real discussion for once. Let's dispense with the silliness and straw-men and really look at this progression of events as shown in the video. Let's say that I agree with your rather strange views on property rights (I don't) and that the cops were in the right for attempting to remove him from this particular piece of public property.

• They tried to talk him down. He refused and made threats.
• He picked up his bags to leave. This is ultimately what they wanted in the first place.
• They throw a grenade at him. The dog approaches menacingly.
• The disoriented, already mentally ill man instinctively drops his bags and reaches for a pocketknife.
• The nearest officer is AT LEAST 15 feet away, on rocky uneven terrain. I don't believe for a single moment, based on this video, that it is '8 feet'. And they are only THAT close because the K9 officer approached HIM.
• He has at least 3 rifles trained on him at close range.
• Boyd thinks better of fighting back, turns around and crouches down to the ground to comply with the orders given.
• The cop shoots him 3 times in the back as he is heading towards the ground. The 'endangered' officer is right in the line of fire, but that is apparently not a concern.
• Once he is on the ground full of holes and dying, a different (I assume) cop shoots him 3 times in the butt with beanbags. They sic the dog on him because he is unable to move enough to let go of the knife.

Was this handled properly, Kirk?

 

[Darral27]

I am no lawyer or LEO and fully understand cases like this are complicated. My question would be with all the "non-lethal" devices being used, why was there a need to simultaneously fire 6 rounds into this man. In a slow motion shot I saw you could see him being hit by the blast of the taser, before he had time to start falling he had been shot 6 times with lethal ammo according to what I read. What is the point of having the tasers and the bean bag rounds if the intention of at least 2 of these officers is to use lethal force? I just cannot see a justification here.

 

[TMU317]

they were standing 15 feet or more from him... beanbag his ass until he drops them and move in.. how difficult is this for you to understand.. lethal force wasn't warranted until the OFFICERS THEMSELVES put themselves in danger...

hell, taze him till he's drooling into the dirt...

Do you know what took place leading up to the short video showing the end of the incident? Do you have all of the information that the officers on scene had at the time of the incident?

Tasers and bean bag rounds do not always work, and require you to get pretty close to your intended target. I certainly would not walk up to a violent felon who has threatened to kill me and attempt to deploy a Taser. It's really easy to sit down and watch a video of an incident and second guess everything that happened when you weren't there and you weren't standing several feet from a violent felon armed with two knives who had already threatened to kill you multiple times.

 

[phylodog]

Still kinda shocked at the level of violence expended. Would love to see their continuum of physical force to see if it jumps from verbal commands to deadly force, or are there more stages in between for this particular department?

We no longer utilize a force continuum but when we did there was no requirement to hit every rung on your way up the ladder. Threatening with a deadly weapon justifies deadly force, there is no requirement to utilize less lethal options. That does not necessarily mean that going straight to deadly force will be considered proper. As mentioned, the Graham v. Connor standard of reasonableness is used to determine if actions were proper.

 

[evsnova74]

I thought the significance of those 21 foot drills is to practice being able to pull your weapon in time for the attacker to close the distance? If you already have a firearm pulled and aimed, how are those drills relevant?

 

[Denny347]

isn't the general idea to try the less lethal options first? I mean, they had 3 hours to try and talk him down...

I do not know if they used beanbags before the fatal shots. However, once a knife is brandished you DO NOT address it with a Taser. Not in the open. Tazer effective range is 21ft and closer. Too close for a knife. Beanbag is really the only less lethal even possible when faced with a knife.

 

[JMoses]

The "less lethal" devices you all talk about aren't as reliable as you think at stopping people.