How low can AR's go? $300 for an AR now?

[Prometheus]

Sho nuff it do. But 'decent' does in no way start at a 300 dollar bill. Not even tree fiddy.

About the shooting per annum part...well, that's a different problem. A fool and their money are soon parted.

It's 1,999 anymore. "Decent" ... Uncle Sam pays a lot more for a rifle that will do exactly the same thing as one of these. These will do 4 MOA with cheap bulk ammo and get 1.75" 5 rd groups with match ammo all day long. For the guy who will likely never shoot match ammo through their AR, does it make sense for them to spend 4x the amount on a rifle that is going to, at best, group 2.5" vs 4" with the same bulk ammo for 2-4 outings a year?

Assuming they ever actually try and shoot it for groups anyway vs throw a vortex red dot on it and be perfectly content hitting pie plates at 50 and 100 yards on their outtings?

The nose in the sky crowd need to climb down off their towers, everyone deserves the opportunity to own a decent rifle, even the young kid struggling through college or person starting out on his first day on the ambulance. You see the starting pay for EMT's right now? How many people out there voting right now would be voting differently if they had one of these sitting in their homes?

 

[Hohn]

I always assess the AR market in terms of what Colts sell for.

I’m glad there are functional ARs < $400. But I just can’t bring myself to trust something at the very limit if the bottom end.

With good quality parts so affordable now, I see no reason to drop all the way to PSA/Anderson.

 

[seedubs1]

It's 1,999 anymore. "Decent" ... Uncle Sam pays a lot more for a rifle that will do exactly the same thing as one of these. These will do 4 MOA with cheap bulk ammo and get 1.75" 5 rd groups with match ammo all day long. For the guy who will likely never shoot match ammo through their AR, does it make sense for them to spend 4x the amount on a rifle that is going to, at best, group 2.5" vs 4" with the same bulk ammo for 2-4 outings a year?

Assuming they ever actually try and shoot it for groups anyway vs throw a vortex red dot on it and be perfectly content hitting pie plates at 50 and 100 yards on their outtings?

The nose in the sky crowd need to climb down off their towers, everyone deserves the opportunity to own a decent rifle, even the young kid struggling through college or person starting out on his first day on the ambulance. You see the starting pay for EMT's right now? How many people out there voting right now would be voting differently if they had one of these sitting in their homes?

There is more to a quality ar than accuracy.

Sorry, but a “decent rifle” in regards to ARs does not start at $300.

 

[Prometheus]

There is more to a quality ar than accuracy.

Sorry, but a “decent rifle” in regards to ARs does not start at $300.

Like? Reliability, I personally put that before accuracy. The base PSA AR is going to be able to go 1k rounds between cleanings, so exactly what does "decent" mean to other people.

I saw Anderson thrown into the mix since we're talking low cost right now, let's stay focused here on the specific example I'm talking about.

Exactly how is what I posted not "decent?" Other than it's priced very low.

 

[Prometheus]

I always assess the AR market in terms of what Colts sell for.

I’m glad there are functional ARs < $400. But I just can’t bring myself to trust something at the very limit if the bottom end.

Colts are a dinosaur, but I get your point.

With good quality parts so affordable now, I see no reason to drop all the way to PSA/Anderson.

I agree. For this version, upgrade the trigger and you're running with pretty much any other AR with a front sight post.

When it comes to some others, i.e. if you want to free float your barrel, grab a better barrel, hit the trigger and your GTG.

As far as Anderson for a base, I've seen some marginally spec lowers and receivers out of them, I hear they have tightened things up but considering PSA beat them to it by several years I don't risk them at this point.

 

[snorko]

Let's keep in mind that the <$400AR today is identical to the $550-$600AR of yesteryear.

 

[avboiler11]

So, its not just ARFCOM where folks are "Tier One or nothing!!1!"

Accuracy is one thing, reliability is another...but on various interwebs/youtube reviews, PSA ARs seem like they've proven to be reliable and meet spec accuracy requirements in austere conditions (dirt, dust, sand, wet, etc.) over multiple thousands of rounds without cleaning.

 

[MCgrease08]

These threads always play out the same way.

 

[BillD]

I've got 2 Tier 1's, a Colt, and 2 PSA's. All with Giesselle triggers.
Both tier ones and one of the PSA have outstanding accuracy. The other two are average. I had a few teething problems with one of the PSA kits but it's working great now. I've got a couple thousand rounds through each of them, more then a couple thousand on two of them. No issues yet.

 

[Brad69]

So I always have this issue with the AR conversation.

If we were talking sidearms the argument would be a High Point can do as well as a Glock or I should buy a RIA instead of a DW. That would never be considered in a pistol but in the AR world it’s a PSA or similar is just as good as a FN,Colt,DD,BCM ?

While I agree that most AR shooters will be fine with a $500-$600 AR and if you wanna shoot a few classes a year and practice IMO a person needs to step up to a $1000 range AR. Then I still stand by the argument that most failures I have witnessed are homemade AR’s. Now some instructors are not allowing home built rifles I don’t know if that’s for liability reasons or failures?
I understand some INGOrs build some nice AR’s and I have witnessed them complete classes without a hiccup.

BTW
My eyes glaze over when people start talking about this upper and that lower, I hit the order button and rifle shows up at dealer!

 

[thunderchicken]

Ok I came to the AR party pretty late and bought my first AR in 2009 or 2010. My first was/ is an Olympic that the guys a Bradis talked me into. I was looking at one that cost a bit more but settled on the Olympic for right at $700. Shortly after I bought it, I went and shot it along side a friend who was breaking in his new (at the time) Rock River AR. My friend paid well north of 1k for his rifle. But, he was bummed all afternoon as my "entry level " Olympic shot tighter groups and ate all the good and cheapo ammo I fed it. While his Rock River was as picky as a 5yo eating veggies. My rifle shot tighter groups...regardless which of us was behind the trigger.
I keep coming back to a few thoughts. 1- does PSA really manufacture all their own parts or are many outsourced? 2- are some of the more expensive ARs just more expensive due to overhead/operating costs and advertising? 3- I assume there is Mil-Spec and non mil-spec. In an apples to apples comparison if two rifles are both Mil-Spec and visually identical what justifies one costing $1k vs one that has a $400 price tag? 4- without a Fed stamp I assume the vast majority of us are running semi auto rifles. While the durability varies in full auto torture testing, how do they hold up in real world semi auto function?

Nothing wrong with getting an "entry level" AR for cheap and then upgrading parts to suit the individual needs. Other than some fit & finish, IF it's Mil-Spec them one theoretically should be just as good as the next..right?

 

[thunderchicken]

So I always have this issue with the AR conversation.

If we were talking sidearms the argument would be a High Point can do as well as a Glock or I should buy a RIA instead of a DW. That would never be considered in a pistol but in the AR world it’s a PSA or similar is just as good as a FN,Colt,DD,BCM ?

While I agree that most AR shooters will be fine with a $500-$600 AR and if you wanna shoot a few classes a year and practice IMO a person needs to step up to a $1000 range AR. Then I still stand by the argument that most failures I have witnessed are homemade AR’s. Now some instructors are not allowing home built rifles I don’t know if that’s for liability reasons or failures?
I understand some INGOrs build some nice AR’s and I have witnessed them complete classes without a hiccup.

BTW
My eyes glaze over when people start talking about this upper and that lower, I hit the order button and rifle shows up at dealer!

While I see your point in terms of side arms, the difference from my perspective is side arms have far more variation in operational design.
Whatever spec requirements make up Mil-Spec, gives the AR a minimum standard. Which IMHO is why Mil-Spec should be as good as Mil-Spec from brand to brand.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Colts are a dinosaur, but I get your point.

Boy, you know what I like doing, shooting my Colt AR-15s and . . . *scratching record* Hey! Wait a minute!

 

[ditcherman]

Ok I came to the AR party pretty late and bought my first AR in 2009 or 2010. My first was/ is an Olympic that the guys a Bradis talked me into. I was looking at one that cost a bit more but settled on the Olympic for right at $700. Shortly after I bought it, I went and shot it along side a friend who was breaking in his new (at the time) Rock River AR. My friend paid well north of 1k for his rifle. But, he was bummed all afternoon as my "entry level " Olympic shot tighter groups and ate all the good and cheapo ammo I fed it. While his Rock River was as picky as a 5yo eating veggies. My rifle shot tighter groups...regardless which of us was behind the trigger.
I keep coming back to a few thoughts. 1- does PSA really manufacture all their own parts or are many outsourced? 2- are some of the more expensive ARs just more expensive due to overhead/operating costs and advertising? 3- I assume there is Mil-Spec and non mil-spec. In an apples to apples comparison if two rifles are both Mil-Spec and visually identical what justifies one costing $1k vs one that has a $400 price tag? 4- without a Fed stamp I assume the vast majority of us are running semi auto rifles. While the durability varies in full auto torture testing, how do they hold up in real world semi auto function?

Nothing wrong with getting an "entry level" AR for cheap and then upgrading parts to suit the individual needs. Other than some fit & finish, IF it's Mil-Spec them one theoretically should be just as good as the next..right?

My understanding is that "mil spec" actually means it will run in dirt mud and grime reliably, and that something that is not mil spec would be more expensive because it would be made to tighter tolerances and still be made to run dirty to some degree, in other words mil spec is the low end and if you have something lower than that you might be in trouble. Maybe someone will correct me on this.
To your #4 I would like know how the much maligned Anderson lower fails to live up to a high end component as far as accuracy and reliability for a hobbiest (not military) shooting 3-5000 rounds a year or something, as well. I just don't see the difference, when you can get exactly the trigger you want.

 

[Ggreen]

These threads go nowhere. Shoot what you can afford and **** what anyone in the peanut gallery wants to tell you. Lots of keyboard ahpurrahturs care too much about what their neighbor is doing.

If a person asks for advice on picking out a 400 dollar rifle and you fight the op insistent that only a 1000 dollar rifle will work, your a terd. A generally misinformed terd. 1000s of rounds go down range every weekend from budget guns. I have high end guns and budget bin guns, and all of them seem to work everytime get them out.

 

[Ggreen]

My understanding is that "mil spec" actually means it will run in dirt mud and grime reliably, and that something that is not mil spec would be more expensive because it would be made to tighter tolerances and still be made to run dirty to some degree, in other words mil spec is the low end and if you have something lower than that you might be in trouble. Maybe someone will correct me on this.
To your #4 I would like know how the much maligned Anderson lower fails to live up to a high end component as far as accuracy and reliability for a hobbiest (not military) shooting 3-5000 rounds a year or something, as well. I just don't see the difference, when you can get exactly the trigger you want.

Your understanding of milspec is wrong. It's just a loose set of numbers contractors have to meet to sell them under that contract. Some milspec are very tight, some are loose. Ar15s are loose not for reliability, but for interchangeability in the field and across all the manufacturers who have contracts to make parts. You can machine a very tight ar15 within milspec. But the point is to make sure upper manufacturer A's part fits to manufacturer B's barrel nut, and to C's lower. Its a standard, fitting is the builders job.

 

[ditcherman]

So I always have this issue with the AR conversation.

If we were talking sidearms the argument would be a High Point can do as well as a Glock or I should buy a RIA instead of a DW. That would never be considered in a pistol but in the AR world it’s a PSA or similar is just as good as a FN,Colt,DD,BCM ?

While I agree that most AR shooters will be fine with a $500-$600 AR and if you wanna shoot a few classes a year and practice IMO a person needs to step up to a $1000 range AR. Then I still stand by the argument that most failures I have witnessed are homemade AR’s. Now some instructors are not allowing home built rifles I don’t know if that’s for liability reasons or failures?
I understand some INGOrs build some nice AR’s and I have witnessed them complete classes without a hiccup.

BTW
My eyes glaze over when people start talking about this upper and that lower, I hit the order button and rifle shows up at dealer!

That's racist! Or something. I've definitely built them with hiccups, but sure would intend to work those out before a class.
I hit the order button and a bag of parts shows up on the porch, so similar, but different.

 

[ditcherman]

Your understanding of milspec is wrong. It's just a loose set of numbers contractors have to meet to sell them under that contract. Some milspec are very tight, some are loose. Ar15s are loose not for reliability, but for interchangeability in the field and across all the manufacturers who have contracts to make parts. You can machine a very tight ar15 within milspec. But the point is to make sure upper manufacturer A's part fits to manufacturer B's barrel nut, and to C's lower. Its a standard, fitting is the builders job.

So would you surmise that the more expensive the component the tighter the tolerance?

 

[Ggreen]

That's racist! Or something. I've definitely built them with hiccups, but sure would intend to work those out before a class.
I hit the order button and a bag of parts shows up on the porch, so similar, but different.

I've seen a les Baer with a backwards castle nut... Staked. If it's not a solgw, I would rather build it myself.

 

[Ggreen]

So would you surmise that the more expensive the component the tighter the tolerance?

Not necessarily. Cost doesn't equal quality.