How low can AR's go? $300 for an AR now?

[snorko]

Your understanding of milspec is wrong. It's just a loose set of numbers contractors have to meet to sell them under that contract. Some milspec are very tight, some are loose. Ar15s are loose not for reliability, but for interchangeability in the field and across all the manufacturers who have contracts to make parts. You can machine a very tight ar15 within milspec. But the point is to make sure upper manufacturer A's part fits to manufacturer B's barrel nut, and to C's lower. Its a standard, fitting is the builders job.

Yep, generally, see Eli Whitney. It is simply a set of specifications, not better, not worse, just is.

That is why I have to laugh when liberals use the phrase milspec AR-15 as if that means it is a full auto death machine. Got into that with my father once. He said something to the effect of "why would anyone need a milspec AR-15 assault rifle?" I asked him to explain what that was and of course he could not. I then reminded him that the then new Ford F-150 had a "milspec" aluminum body but it wasn't a freakin' tank.

 

[bwframe]

Sometimes a Timex will do the same job as a Rolex.

 

[Hohn]

Not necessarily. Cost doesn't equal quality.

True. Paying more might improve the odds of getting good stuff, but nothing is guaranteed.

The “mil spec” crowd doesn’t seem to grasp that the civilian market is generally far ahead of .mil spec. DoD is always playing catch up.

The development of the AR that has occurred in the last 20 years— almost entirely by civilian makers— is phenomenal.

There are great makers that get military contracts. But often that’s just an indication of size/capacity and having industry connections.

I love Geissele and DD and BCM, of course. But there’s very little reason a conscientious guy could assemble world class rifles as home. Putting together an AR is hardly an engineering challenge. Buy good parts and tools/jigs/fixtures and anyone— even an unknown— can achieve “world class” reliability, Durability, and/or accuracy.

 

[jd4320t]

These threads always play out the same way.

Yep

 

[Prometheus]

True. Paying more might improve the odds of getting good stuff, but nothing is guaranteed.

The “mil spec” crowd doesn’t seem to grasp that the civilian market is generally far ahead of .mil spec. DoD is always playing catch up.

The development of the AR that has occurred in the last 20 years— almost entirely by civilian makers— is phenomenal.

There are great makers that get military contracts. But often that’s just an indication of size/capacity and having industry connections.

I love Geissele and DD and BCM, of course. But there’s very little reason a conscientious guy could assemble world class rifles as home. Putting together an AR is hardly an engineering challenge. Buy good parts and tools/jigs/fixtures and anyone— even an unknown— can achieve “world class” reliability, Durability, and/or accuracy.

This, all of this. Especially the bold.

 

[Floivanus]

Good barrel, good bolt and whatever trigger you’re comfortable shooting.

BTW milspec refers to a whole litney of specifications, such as the testing of the bolt, material spec, hardness, chrome lining of the piston in the bolt carrier. Keeping with the bolt carrier group, non milspec might just mean the thing isn’t chrome lined, may still be MPI tested, and likely will be perfectly fine, but wear out gas rings a bit earlier than a milspec carrier.

keep gas rings, firing pin, well just an extra bolt carrier group on hand and you’ll be fine.

outside of a quality barrel/bolt combo you’re paying for a cool name. The prices of AR15s aren’t likely to go down any further

 

[Sniper 79]

Love me some PSA goodness. They shoot what needs shot and are of good quality. My go too is a complete PSA kit I put together. I quit spending big money on guns. They are tools that I use. They get knocked around and may even get used as a emergency boat paddle. If one ends up in an evidence locker, stolen, left on a tailgate, or fallen overboard.....I could care less and will order a few more. Life is great!

 

[ditcherman]

Sometimes a Timex will do the same job as a Rolex.

At least twice a day.

 

[ditcherman]

True. Paying more might improve the odds of getting good stuff, but nothing is guaranteed.

The “mil spec” crowd doesn’t seem to grasp that the civilian market is generally far ahead of .mil spec. DoD is always playing catch up.

The development of the AR that has occurred in the last 20 years— almost entirely by civilian makers— is phenomenal.

There are great makers that get military contracts. But often that’s just an indication of size/capacity and having industry connections.

I love Geissele and DD and BCM, of course. But there’s very little reason a conscientious guy could assemble world class rifles as home. Putting together an AR is hardly an engineering challenge. Buy good parts and tools/jigs/fixtures and anyone— even an unknown— can achieve “world class” reliability, Durability, and/or accuracy.

This is what I was alluding to in my first explanation just didn’t ‘splain it very well.

 

[natdscott]

It's 1,999 anymore. "Decent" ... Uncle Sam pays a lot more for a rifle that will do exactly the same thing as one of these. These will do 4 MOA with cheap bulk ammo and get 1.75" 5 rd groups with match ammo all day long. For the guy who will likely never shoot match ammo through their AR, does it make sense for them to spend 4x the amount on a rifle that is going to, at best, group 2.5" vs 4" with the same bulk ammo for 2-4 outings a year?

Assuming they ever actually try and shoot it for groups anyway vs throw a vortex red dot on it and be perfectly content hitting pie plates at 50 and 100 yards on their outtings?

The nose in the sky crowd need to climb down off their towers, everyone deserves the opportunity to own a decent rifle, even the young kid struggling through college or person starting out on his first day on the ambulance. You see the starting pay for EMT's right now? How many people out there voting right now would be voting differently if they had one of these sitting in their homes?

Well. That was predictable.

You're railing on about how much people make, EMT salaries, and all manner of un-related topics. I wonder if you are projecting?

As I alluded to before, the "guy who doesn't shoot his AR, but prefers to look at it and feel happy" is not much concern to me. He can spend his $300 bill and be happy, I guess.

My issue is the quality and reliability. I simply do not see people who depend on their rifles for life & livelihood using junk.

I never said non-junk had to be $1,000, $5,000...ANY number. I just know, from seeing thousands and thousands of AR-15s, that quality and reliability do not start at the dollar value you are discussing. "All day long".

-Nate

 

[jd4320t]

Well. That was predictable.

You're railing on about how much people make, EMT salaries, and all manner of un-related topics. I wonder if you are projecting?

As I alluded to before, the "guy who doesn't shoot his AR, but prefers to look at it and feel happy" is not much concern to me. He can spend his $300 bill and be happy, I guess.

My issue is the quality and reliability. I simply do not see people who depend on their rifles for life & livelihood using junk.

I never said non-junk had to be $1,000, $5,000...ANY number. I just know, from seeing thousands and thousands of AR-15s, that quality and reliability do not start at the dollar value you are discussing. "All day long".

-Nate

So PSA is junk?

 

[Hohn]

If I might expand a bit on my earlier point that was quoted:

Rifle quality depends on two things: 1)the design, fit, finish of the parts used to build it and 2) the workmanship in assembling it.

A lot guys seems be bashing one kind of rifle over another when they use the same parts. Or elevating one company above the others.

Let's take a top shelf AR like SOLGW. Premium for sure. But when you go to "build your blaster", what do you see? Someone else's safety. Someone else's triggers. Someone else's grips. Someone else's sights, charging handle, muzzle device, takedown pins, etc.

Hmm. Would a home builder using the same parts have a "crap" rifle?


My DDM4 V11 pro has several parts not made by DD.

So what is there really that distinguished one "quality" rifle from another? Putting aside workmanship again, it's really just a tiny handful of parts. The receivers, the barrel, bolt and BCG and that's arguably it. I'd argue not even the handguard really goes into whether a rifle is "quality" in terms of reliability and durability.

The home builder or no name assembler is practically drowning in premium quality options. Build off a budget Aero receiver set, put in a DD CHF barrel for a combat build or a Bartlein for a match build, a Geissele handguard, a JP or BCM BCG and really what, exactly are you giving up in part quality relative to a fully assembled BCM or DD upper?

I'd argue nothing at all. Receiver forgings are commodities that originate all from only a handful of sources. And then they are cut on a CNC machining center from one of a handful of suppliers (Haas, Okuma, MoriSeki, etc etc)


Which leaves workmanship. This is, imo, the single biggest discriminator between one guy's collection of commodity parts and someone else's collection of commodity parts. But there's really only so many ways to screw up an AR.

And no, MR. TDP, if the castle nut isn't staked or the gas keys not "properly staked" it means basically nothing. Young MFG doesn't stake gas keys-- are they crap? These "requirements" are largely carryover bandaids from ancient .gov requirements that were put in place because people didn't know how to make a nut or screw not come loose. With proper torque and thread prep, a gas key won't come loose. When was the last time you saw a castle nut come loose? The AR buyer harping on these points is adopting the attitude of a guy going to buy a dangerous car with terrible crash performance, bald tires, and no brakes and then harp on the details of the seatbelt design.

My particular Aero receiver set fits together better than my DD halves do. I'm confident that if I worked conscientiously, I could build a rifle the equal or better of my DD in terms of reliability and durability.

Indeed, two reasons I bought my DDM4V11 Pro were:
1) I couldn't build it as cheaply as I could buy it. The rifle I paid ~$1700 to buy would have cost ~ $1900+ to build with comparable parts. It turns out that DD gets Geisseles cheaper than I can. Who knew.
2) I didn't want my first and only AR to be a first time build. If you are in the AR market for a first rifle and not sure whether or if you will build or build well, then I figured one should buy the very best he can afford. (and it shot a 200-14x at 300y the very first time out, so DD barrel quality is legit, IMO).


Now that I've had a few thousand rounds through it and seen what my DD is and isn't, I'd certainly consider building and NEVER consider skimping on parts.

My limited interactions with other people's ARs across budget ranges has left me with a few thoughts:

-- Sigs M400s are way better than I think people seem to think. I was impressed
-- The recoil of a PSA carbine was something I wasn't prepared for. Could not keep the Eotech on target at all. Function was 100% but I suspect it was overgassed and not a little.


In the end, it parts and labor. Buy good parts and skilled labor and you'll have a great rifle. That requires paying more at times. But I highly doubt that a $750 billet Noveske receiver set results in a rifle that has any measurable difference in accuracy or reliability over a rifle built with otherwise identical parts on a $150 Aero receiver set.

Quality costs more, but let's be honest enough to recognize that above some cost we are paying for cosmetics or cool factor or wanting to be in with the cool kids in the fanboy circle.

 

[ibwaltb]

I very much agree, Hohn.

 

[Brad69]

I do believe you are right Hohn about SIG M400’s plus IMO I look sexier shooting it than any other AR!
You guy’s need to watch me shoot my MCX it’s like poetry in motion kinda like when James Brown would dance.

 

[chubbs]

The shop I work at sells DD rifles. I've seen multiple issues out of their stuff. Seen 2 hammer spring on backwards in the past few months... No matter who made it, look it over before you call it good to go.

 

[Voldemort]

These threads go nowhere. Shoot what you can afford and **** what anyone in the peanut gallery wants to tell you. Lots of keyboard ahpurrahturs care too much about what their neighbor is doing.

If a person asks for advice on picking out a 400 dollar rifle and you fight the op insistent that only a 1000 dollar rifle will work, your a terd. A generally misinformed terd. 1000s of rounds go down range every weekend from budget guns. I have high end guns and budget bin guns, and all of them seem to work everytime get them out.

Refreshing, an adult attitude.

 

[gopher29]

It's not just ARs. Gun prices in general have fallen off a cliff due to too many being manufactured relative to the existing demand. I bought my first AR back in 1999 for hundreds of dollars more than a similar rifle can be purchased for today,; and that isn't even taking into account inflation. We are living in an era where a person can now buy a S&W or Ruger factory built rifle for $500 or buy a lower/parts kit and build their own rifle for $300. For those of us that have dabbled in this hobby for decades it is crazy to see and makes me glad I'm not in a position where I have to try to sell any of my guns because I can't imagine the current market would be kind.

 

[AtTheMurph]

The natural price for everything that is manufactured should be down over time.

This should be the logical conclusion since the costs to manufacture a commodity should become lower as the manufacturer achieves economies of scale, manufacturing knowledge and processes get better and costs for materials goes down with more volume.

But we are taught that prices should go UP over time because of inflation. And that we should like inflation because we need it.
What a bunch of BS.

 

[Prometheus]

It's not just ARs. Gun prices in general have fallen off a cliff due to too many being manufactured relative to the existing demand. I bought my first AR back in 1999 for hundreds of dollars more than a similar rifle can be purchased for today,; and that isn't even taking into account inflation. We are living in an era where a person can now buy a S&W or Ruger factory built rifle for $500 or buy a lower/parts kit and build their own rifle for $300. For those of us that have dabbled in this hobby for decades it is crazy to see and makes me glad I'm not in a position where I have to try to sell any of my guns because I can't imagine the current market would be kind.

It wouldn't be. I try to look at the plus side, pretty much everything I wanted before but couldn't afford is now within reach. I don't have to choose between having one or two AR's setup a certain way, now I can have half a dozen setup exactly how I want them and I'm out about the same as I would have for half as many in the past.

I feel good for the younger shooters just getting into it, the world is their oyster. I hope they don't take this opportunity for granted.

The natural price for everything that is manufactured should be down over time.

This should be the logical conclusion since the costs to manufacture a commodity should become lower as the manufacturer achieves economies of scale, manufacturing knowledge and processes get better and costs for materials goes down with more volume.

For sure, everything the government doesn't subsidize or control prices decrease. For everything government meddles with and gives retaliative monopolies to, such as health care, prices sky rocket.

But we are taught that prices should go UP over time because of inflation. And that we should like inflation because we need it.
What a bunch of BS.

Total B.S. Inflation, as I'm sure you know, is the hidden tax. Government can tax every single dollar in existence, be it in the bank or under your mattress, via inflation. It's impossible to avoid until we fix our monetary system and I don't see any way government voluntarily gives up that cash cow.

 

[Chase515]

I picked up my two stripped lowers at fourguns in lafayette yesterday. Also grabbed two magpul trigger guards one od green and the other black. I assembled the lower for my sons birthday present last night and pinned it on the upper with a od green magpul grip and trigger guard. Safety was a little gritty so I took the grip back off and pulled the selector added two blobs of geissele purple go juice grease and it snaps back and forth perfectly now. I applied the geissele go juice oil to the trigger group. Also had to fix a couple scratches with a birchwood casey aluma black paint pin that I caused. Overall very happy with the product. I might be cussing it tomorrow when I try to install the cmmg 22lr kit. I'll report back when I get to test fire it.