Bunnykid68
Grandmaster
Yes, you can offer the officer a cookie
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How would you like to be treated by law-enforcement?
- Thread starter EPD1102
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^^^ This is all that you need to do right here. End Of Contact. PERIOD
I would only add to commenting on the carrier's awesome choice of gun or what a great holster he has.
Then go contact the person that made the complaint and educate them about the gun laws and people's rights. (you will find them cowering behind some object, hugging a cell phone and wearing a "Forward" shirt)
Then contact whoever is in charge of the 911 system to educate them on how to correctly handle incoming M.W.A.G. calls. (We all know how that should go)
Honestly - How many "evildoers" have ever been involved in any crime while Open Carrying a gun in a holster?
* You will come across some resistance from carriers, usually because they know their rights and the laws and are getting tired of being hassled.
Not a bad idea at all.
I've always been treated with respect and I return the favor. The officer responding should, if no shots are being fired, take a few moments to observe the person of interest and take it from there. Keep in mind the office has to follow procedure at this point and has to make some report since he is responding to a call.
If the person is behaving in what can be considered a 'normal, lawabiding manner, he should quietly approach and quietly ask about the permit without creating 'a fuss'. The person of interest should respond in kind. There is no need to be confrontational by either party and it will be a 'non-incident' and everybody will be happy.
Yes, you can offer the officer a cookie
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
eldirector
Grandmaster
Of course! Well, this is INGO. We'll try....
I find it highly unlikely that a criminal will be going about their normal day with a high-dollar handgun in a nice leather/Kydex holster plainly visible. I find it MUCH more likely that someone who is openly carrying knows the law and is an upstanding citizen. I also find it more likely that a criminal would have their cheap/stolen handgun kept as hidden as possible until "needed". Be more concerned with the folks that are actively hiding their intentions than those of us that are being open about ours.
Then simply confirm they are legal and keep the encounter as brief as possible, to the benefit of BOTH parties. Remember, the MWAG is part of the same community you are responsible for. They deserve the same respect as the concerned citizen.
In an ideal world, the responding officer would also have an opportunity to chat with the caller/complainant. Educating them on the actual law (no opinion is necessary at all) should be part of the job.
In all honesty, the many officers I have talked with since I began carrying have all been polite and professional. Not a single one has EVER asked for my LTCH. Only a few have commented on my handgun at all (usually just small talk about caliber and such). The vast majority have taken notice, and let me be. As they should.
Some good suggestions on the first page. Ones I like:
Don't preach your carry preference or how you would prefer it to be
Don't assume I'm a criminal or breaking a law or lying to you. If you care, ask if I have a license. I'll answer honestly, and that's where the conversation should end.
I would love for an officer to approach me and talk to me positively about carrying. I've experienced that a couple times, and I appreciated it.
Don't villify the law-abiding citizens simply because the people that don't know the law are screaming. Being uninformed is no excuse to apprehend or harass a legally-carrying person.
Don't preach your carry preference or how you would prefer it to be
Don't assume I'm a criminal or breaking a law or lying to you. If you care, ask if I have a license. I'll answer honestly, and that's where the conversation should end.
I would love for an officer to approach me and talk to me positively about carrying. I've experienced that a couple times, and I appreciated it.
Don't villify the law-abiding citizens simply because the people that don't know the law are screaming. Being uninformed is no excuse to apprehend or harass a legally-carrying person.
I too, think almost everything was covered on the first page.
Don't preach, don't roll up on us like we are Al Capone. Courtesy and respect will go a long way and is indeed a two way street. Please know the laws and do not make them up.
When doing a traffic stop or responding to a MWAG call, please for the love of all that is right and holy stop coonfingering someone else's gun when it is readily apparent that you don't know how to operate said gun. It makes us all nervous and in no way enhances officer safety. In fact, it endangers everyone nearby. No individual's safety is more paramount than another's. We all want to get home to see our families and watch football.
When responding to a dispatched call, please do go back to the caller and educate them a bit on the law. Inform them what is legal, that the person is minding their own business, they are simply enjoying a walk/eating with friends or family/ shopping, etc.
Communication, courtesy, a bit of respect, and some common sense are all that is really needed rather than screaming and bullying or intimidation tactics.
Best of luck on your training!
Don't preach, don't roll up on us like we are Al Capone. Courtesy and respect will go a long way and is indeed a two way street. Please know the laws and do not make them up.
When doing a traffic stop or responding to a MWAG call, please for the love of all that is right and holy stop coonfingering someone else's gun when it is readily apparent that you don't know how to operate said gun. It makes us all nervous and in no way enhances officer safety. In fact, it endangers everyone nearby. No individual's safety is more paramount than another's. We all want to get home to see our families and watch football.
When responding to a dispatched call, please do go back to the caller and educate them a bit on the law. Inform them what is legal, that the person is minding their own business, they are simply enjoying a walk/eating with friends or family/ shopping, etc.
Communication, courtesy, a bit of respect, and some common sense are all that is really needed rather than screaming and bullying or intimidation tactics.
Best of luck on your training!
You said exactly what I was thinking. I want my gun to stay in my holster. Don't touch my gun. Just because someone's a LEO doesn't mean they like guns or know much about them. The safest place for my gun is in my holster and the safest place for your gun is in yours.
The first point may not play to the rookies quite as well, the rest all should understand. You know how you'll have a busy shift and about six or 7 hours in you finally get a gap where you're all caught up on calls and try for a meal break and no sooner do you sit down to eat your food and John Q Public walks up to you and says their brother in law is a cop in xyz city or they had the cops out at their house two months ago for whatever call and wanted to ask you a few questions and they bug you until you get a radio call and your lunch break is gone....this is pretty darn close to how it feels to be hassled about carrying if I've not broken any laws, and hassled doesn't mean harassed, it can be everything from wanting to play 20 questions about the gun I'm carrying and where I shoot (though if I'm in the right mood and have the time this may be fine), to telling me I should cover it up because your crystal ball says you might get a call later on; if I'm abiding by the law, I want to have my carrying a gun be treated no differently that my shirt of choice, given the totality of the circumstances I chose what would be most comfortable for the day, sometimes I may end up dressing a little light, some times a little heavy, so sometimes I may be OCing in places it's less common, and maybe even a social faux pas but it's still perfectly legal and something I'm going to do because at the end of the day I want to make sure myself and my family get home unharmed. I'm not out looking for confrontation, not matter what youtube might tell you. So you can see I have a gun big whoop, it doesn't mean the eyesight particularity excellent their; I'm not going to be impressed by any unnecessary confrontation started by an officer.
Which brings me to point number two, if you do witness me in some violation of the law (traffic stops seem to be the example brought up most frequently on INGO); understand we both have the same goal we both want to get home to our families safe and sound. And just while you want me to understand everybody with a gun is not automatically a good guy, and everyone with an LTCH still has it current and valid....Not every officer is either, there are plenty of officers out there who have coerced sexual acts from innocent people, and officers who think if they find a person legally carrying they should put 10 rounds in them that instant there have been officers that decided to go and shoot up their office and officers willing to tamper with evidence and lie in reports, and many of those bad apples are still on the job, and a fair number are still yet to get caught. There are bad apples in every group. Just because you have a badge does not automatically make you a good guy, and I have to protect myself from you the same as any stranger. We both want to take care of business and carry on, if that means it's a car accident, lets get injury taken care of, the mess cleaned up and the report taken; if it's a theft report then just looking for the report to be done and the stuff to be found. There's a common goal and both of us happening to have a firearm to protect ourselves does not change that.
That means too that unless I am presenting a compelling danger (committed a violent crime, am acting out in a mentally unstable manner, severely intoxicated by alcohol or an illegal drug there's even an IN statue to describe this, called seizure of firearm without a warrant), that there is no reason to take my firearm from me, manipulate it make a mess of the bullets etc. In the traffic stop scenario the much greater threat is from the self consumed individual driving the deadly weapon while on their cell phone...LODD stats backup that vehicle accident is far more likely to harm you than a legally armed citizen. If from talking to me and looking at the paper you're not confident that my LTCH is valid, you have a portable radio you can stay there and run the number and get it valid or not from dispatch, I'll gladly keep my hands on the top of the steering wheel with the car off dome lights on and windows down for a few minutes so you can be assured I won't be making sudden movements; because I understand bad things do happen. I want you to understand I'm not going to end my life over a $125 ticket, and if I was that unstable leaving me in a car with keys that can run people over taking the firearm isn't going to stop me, and if I'm willing to end my life over it, being where I can jump out in front of passing traffic probably isn't going to make much of a difference either...so it's only worth taking my gun if you're going to take me to jail or a mental institution...and I know that's not happening with every traffic stop.
And yes bad things do happen, and while you may not mean to, NDs can happen if you're handling my firearm, especially if you want to remove it from the holster that's on my body, and an ND there into me is not going to leave me very happy, nor you very comfortable explaining in court why it was necessary to disarm me and accidentally put a bullet in my leg (or worse depending upon the method of the day); if I have to handle it to give it to you that can look very bad to the citizen or other LEO who's not texting and driving by at 70MPH. Point is unnecessary handling of the firearm is unnecessary and dangerous. And if it's a rolled stop sign or speeding or burnt out brake light or the missing of a turn signal....then the fact I have a firearm has nothing to do with the violation and I expect it to be as much of a non-issue as the color of my car.
And to that point the firearm in my book is a non-issue for traffic violations, I don't want a break just because I'm armed and I don't want anymore hassle either. I've seen too many cases were someone offers up that they're armed so they can get the gun S/N ran and get on without a ticket, if I'm wrong call me on it and I'll own up; if I'm not don't bother me anymore than anyone else. And don't take offense to the fact that I may be carrying one or more firearms and not bring it up, simply because it's not going to have any bearing on the situation unless things develop to where it's my only option to protect myself from a forcible felony.
Ignorance of the law is NOT an excuse either. I see all the time officers justifying something by saying they don't need to know what all the laws are, and they can't possibly know them all, so we should let it slide when they don't know the carry laws. If your uniform comes with a gun you need to know the laws around them; I shouldn't (but will) have to educate you on the street about what I can and can't do. I need to know them as a citizen and as soon as you're 10-42 you do to. I can't use the words on this forum for what I think of those who use that as an excuse. Unfit to wear a badge and needing a trip to ILEA and go through all the training again from day one are the least of what I want to see for someone who is going to take such a duty and a responsibility so lightly.
Knowing the law and the case law, you'll know that I can legally open carry in IN and after have a reason to do so you ask for my LTCH and find that it is valid, then that is it end of story.
And if I haven't broken a law, there is no reason to bother me, would you respond to my house if my neighbor called 911 because they didn't like the flowers planted in my front yard, or the fact that I got a new car? There's no reason to contact me if I'm participating in legal behavior, there is every reason to contact the person who is complaining and educate them on the law, either at the dispatch or the officer level. And to educate the complainer, I need not be detained.
We carriers are the ones that understand the police can't be everywhere at once, and we're not out to take your job or do it for free or be vigilantes, we're just looking to keep ourselves safe and live to fight another day, same as you. I don't mind if someone disagrees with the fact that I carry, but it doesn't make my right to life, self defense or keeping and bearing arms any less valid. It does not make me the bad guy. In a random encounter, you don't know me so you can't trust me, I get it; but that doesn't mean respect is out the window, it doesn't mean my rights are out the window, and it doesn't mean courtesy is gone either. For the most part treat my having a firearm the same as you want your Sargent to treat a rookie for having a firearm; no need to make the rookies empty their gun and magazines every time they walk into the squad room or have backup arrive to assist them on a call or ride with their FTO; an LTCH holder passed a background check and many even have more firearms training than the rookie officers.
An officers demeanor is going to be just as important as their actions. There's a small percentage of officers out there who get that everyone is on the same side and it can be a pleasant experience for all if someone is carrying, the majority of officers tend to have a bred in unfounded adversarial position ingrained into them from the training process, and there's a small number of officers out there with a self serving agenda that can go off the deep end. I think approaching it from the training position is actually a really good stance because that can clear up the majority of the issues. I know the secret service and security companies do put their officers through many training cycles where nothing happens, that when they go out there most of the time there will not be something they need to respond to, how many training scenarios do officers go through where a gun is present and isn't there to be used against them? Many officers are hired and never have touched a firearm in their life until they get to their pre-basic 40, their socialization is from movies and training where it's either what they have for protection or what the bad guy has and is using against them. The agency that seems to have the least issue with firearm encounters is the agency that seems to handle the most encounters, the DNR, those officers before starting, during training or on the job become socialized to firearms as something that is common and when holstered inert and when not holstered something to be dealt with. Officers can take precautions, they should always be identifying what is valid cover and what is concealment around them, and be able to instruct people in different levels of urgency to keep their hands in a visible location. Use those with an LTCH as a reminder to keep your SA up, not as an excuse to cause trouble. And included in causing trouble is the 5 year old girls stealing my gun, and random stranger bashing my head in with a baseball bat stories that assume I'm an idiot with no SA or retention skills stories, and the thought taking my firearm from my holster without allowing me to see you are indeed a police officer is likely to breed a similar response as john Q public trying to take your gun from the holster without asking; things like that do nothing other than cause bad days all around and get lots of people upset, I won't start these problems with an officer, so why should they start them with me out of the blue? Granted the last bit tends to fall into the third category of those with their own agenda.
Last edited:
EvilBlackGun
Master
Also need to consider ...
The "problem" is neither respect or courtesy; my Constitutional Right is bumping up against someone's opinions. I don't "deserve" my rights. Remember your oath. I've never "un-sworn" mine.
Bunnykid68
Grandmaster
No, I am just not listeningWhat we have here is a failure to communicate.
Bunnykid68
Grandmaster
Birdsaway is the one offering, not me. I got a cold one if you are off work and thirsty though
Birdsaway is the one offering, not me. I got a cold one if you are off work and thirsty though
I'll take them from anyone. You might even get one from me next time I see you out.
I am off on vacation. After Saturday night, I could use a vacation. Thanks for the offer.
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