How would you like to be treated by law-enforcement?

[Liberty Sanders]

I am a retired police officer. I now do some training with law-enforcement agencies. I have read a lot of posts on here by people who felt they were treated badly by police, especially when open-carrying. I would like to ask the members on here how they would train officers to deal with someone who is open-carrying. Please try to put yourselves in the shoes of a training officer who is teaching new officers how to respond to these situations and calls.
Some of the rules that I would like for us to abide by are:
1. Can we please keep this civil and professional?
2. Remember that there are bad people who carry guns too and not everyone who is open-carrying is automatically a good guy.
3. Most officers who approach someone who is open-carrying are doing so because they are responding to a dispatched run about that person. The officer has a responsibility to their community to do their job and investigate why this person has a gun and to confirm that they are legal if they are dispatched to do so.
Thank You

I am surprised to hear this from someone who purports to be a retired LEO.

The mere fact that a LEO has received a MWAG run does NOT mean that a LEO "has a responsibility to do their job and investigate why this person has a gun and to confirm that they are legal if they are dispatched to do so."

A LEO's responsibilty at ALL times is to respect the civil rights of citizens. It is NOT a citizen's responsibility to prove that he has a legal right to possess a gun. It is the responsibility of a LEO to prove it if a citizen does NOT have a right to do so. A LEO does not have the right to detain an armed citizen minus a reasonable articulable suspicion that the citizen's firearm is being used to further a crime.

It greatly alarms me that you have been placed in a position to train law enforcement officers.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I'll take them from anyone. You might even get one from me next time I see you out.

I am off on vacation. After Saturday night, I could use a vacation. Thanks for the offer.

Give me a call and you can swing by sometime and have a cold one.

 

[canav844]

Longest. Post. Ever.

Don't want them to have insufficient training

 

[Mark 1911]

* I would like to ask the members on here how they would train officers to deal with someone who is open-carrying. Please try to put yourselves in the shoes of a training officer who is teaching new officers how to respond to these situations and calls.
Thank You

Ask yourself how you would like to be treated. Remember that you have no more rights than I do. Don't question my OC unless you have RAS. MWAG does not equal RAS. You don't ask every driver to see their driver's license, apply similar criteria to LTCH requests.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I am surprised to hear this from someone who purports to be a retired LEO.

The mere fact that a LEO has received a MWAG run does NOT mean that a LEO "has a responsibility to do their job and investigate why this person has a gun and to confirm that they are legal if they are dispatched to do so."

A LEO's responsibilty at ALL times is to respect the civil rights of citizens. It is NOT a citizen's responsibility to prove that he has a legal right to possess a gun. It is the responsibility of a LEO to prove it if a citizen does NOT have a right to do so. A LEO does not have the right to detain an armed citizen minus a reasonable articulable suspicion that the citizen's firearm is being used to further a crime.

It greatly alarms me that you have been placed in a position to train law enforcement officers.

Liberty, I have to disagree with you here. In Indiana it is against the law to carry a handgun, a persons legal out is to have an LTCH.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I want to be treated like a LEO if I am pulled over.

The very act of open carrying a firearm is reasonable cause to stop a person in Indiana and ask to see their LTCH. I don't make the rules.

 

[GetA2J]

Not a bad idea at all.
I've always been treated with respect and I return the favor. The officer responding should, if no shots are being fired, take a few moments to observe the person of interest and take it from there. Keep in mind the office has to follow procedure at this point and has to make some report since he is responding to a call.
If the person is behaving in what can be considered a 'normal, lawabiding manner, he should quietly approach and quietly ask about the permit without creating 'a fuss'. The person of interest should respond in kind. There is no need to be confrontational by either party and it will be a 'non-incident' and everybody will be happy.

Please do NOT put the well meaning police officer in a position to determine what is "normal behavior"!!!!!!!!
He has enough to deal with watching out for blatant law breakers to spend any time at all "observing" and coming to a judgment call about someone's "normal behavior"
On this comment I call FOUL!

 

[GetA2J]

Liberty, I have to disagree with you here. In Indiana it is against the law to carry a handgun, a persons legal out is to have an LTCH.

It is also against the law to drive a car without a driver's license...... OLD STALE arguement.

 

[Bunnykid68]

It is also against the law to drive a car without a driver's license...... OLD STALE arguement.

Courts have ruled on that, no argument to be had.

When the courts rule on the carrying of a firearm in the same manner they have concerning driving a car then there will be a valid argument.

 

[0750turbo]

Good thread idea, as long as comments follow the OP's rules and requests.

The best time to nip any unnecessary encounters is when the MWAG call is made. Face it -- most IN residents, including long-time gun owners, are completely ignorant of carry laws. If 911 operators knew the laws and could simply ask the caller, "What is the man with the gun doing? Is he threatening anyone with his gun?" perhaps no officer would need to be dispatched at all.

"Ma'am, are you aware that any IN resident who passes a required background check and possesses a license to do so can carry guns around in plain view?"

"Why, no, I didn't know that. Are you sure it's legal? It scares me."

"I'm sorry it scares you, ma'am, but if he's not threatening you or anyone else, he's likely carrying his gun legally. Do you still want me to send a police officer?"

"I guess not. I didn't know ..."

 

[GetA2J]

Courts have ruled on that, no argument to be had.

When the courts rule on the carrying of a firearm in the same manner they have concerning driving a car then there will be a valid argument.

Link?

 

[Bunnykid68]

Link?

Have no idea what the link is, just know that it is true. A LEO cannot pull you over to just check your license.

Carrying a handgun in Indiana is illegal, BUT if you have an LTCH you are granted that privilege.

If you want the link, find it or just wait, someone will post it up sooner or later, they always do. Still does not change the fact that I am 100% correct

 

[Jack Burton]

Have no idea what the link is, just know that it is true. A LEO cannot pull you over to just check your license.

Carrying a handgun in Indiana is illegal, BUT if you have an LTCH you are granted that privilege.

If you want the link, find it or just wait, someone will post it up sooner or later, they always do. Still does not change the fact that I am 100% correct

Bunny is 1000 percent correct. It is against the Indiana law for an individual to be in the general pubic with a handgun. Period. No doubt about it. This is not rocket science, people. IT IS AGAINST THE LAW.

However, IF you have an LTC you have an exemption from the law. Thus, if an officer sees you with a handgun or knows that you have one, he is allowed to make the reasonable assumption that he has probable cause that you are breaking the law. This is why they can legally, morally and ethically ask if you have a mitigating factor such as the LTC. If you do, then you should be free and clear of any further questioning about the handgun.

This type of info should be on a sticky, or Number One in the FAQ.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Bunny is 1000 percent correct. It is against the Indiana law for an individual to be in the general pubic with a handgun. Period. No doubt about it. This is not rocket science, people. IT IS AGAINST THE LAW.

However, IF you have an LTC you have an exemption from the law. Thus, if an officer sees you with a handgun or knows that you have one, he is allowed to make the reasonable assumption that he has probable cause that you are breaking the law. This is why they can legally, morally and ethically ask if you have a mitigating factor such as the LTC. If you do, then you should be free and clear of any further questioning about the handgun.

This type of info should be on a sticky, or Number One in the FAQ.

Quicker than I thought. Thanks Jack, but do you have a link?

 

[patience0830]

Also, how about a cookie?

.

Cookie? Come on! Go Big. I want 'em to treat me to a steak!

 

[Jack Burton]

Quicker than I thought. Thanks Jack, but do you have a link?

Sure do, but why deprive someone of the pleasure of learning how to actually look up stuff for themselves.

 

[griffin]

Link?

Delaware v. Prouse

Delaware v. Prouse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Delaware v. Prouse

 

[Dead Duck]

Here's some links.

 

[remauto1187]

Let me just state this fact in a form of a question.

How many "perps" have you seen with the gun in a holster? It should be reasonably assumed that the person with a gun in a holster is either a cop, armed guard or LTCH Citizen, Until proven otherwise. So there is ZERO reason for a cop to come up on the scene acting like a belligerent idiot. (Not saying all do...but alot do)

It all starts with the dispatch operator. Did they ask the caller if the "perp" has the gun in a holster? Is gun out and being pointed or waved? If the answer is no...then what's the problem?

As others have said. There is ZERO reason for an officer to remove MY gun from its holster. (assuming I am not under arrest for a crime).

Otherwise a lawsuit can and will be utilized to get it into a officer's/unit's/Department's thick skulls exactly what the laws really are meant to protect us all and our right to carry of wich the Police should ALREADY know considering this topic has been on the news and radio so many times because of prior incidents. (IE:Evansville/Ft. Wayne)

There is no room for compromise and I will not compromise my rights.

 

[Tinner666]

Please do NOT put the well meaning police officer in a position to determine what is "normal behavior"!!!!!!!!
He has enough to deal with watching out for blatant law breakers to spend any time at all "observing" and coming to a judgment call about someone's "normal behavior"
On this comment I call FOUL!

You can cry foul if you want. It's called situational awareness in the real world.