I Spell Perfection, R.E.M.I.N.G.T.O.N.

[42769vette]

Remington makes an middle of the line gun. I have shotguns. they are good functional guns. not the top of the line quality, but very function.

ok for arguments sake who would you say makes a top of the line bolt action rifle if remington is a middle of the line rifle?

on shotguns i agree but on rifles i think the 700 is pretty much what everyone strives for.

im interested in hearing your thoughts

 

[CountryBoy19]

ok for arguments sake who would you say makes a top of the line bolt action rifle if remington is a middle of the line rifle?

on shotguns i agree but on rifles i think the 700 is pretty much what everyone strives for.

im interested in hearing your thoughts

I've tried to stay out of this thread up until this point because I know my viewpoint will be looked down upon by the Remington snobs, but this seems like a simple enough question to answer.

I'm not sure which ones the OP was thinking of, but a couple of the first "production" rifles that came to my mind were AI and Sako.

Then you can also get into the smaller makers that build high-end custom rifles. GAP etc.

If Remington is "perfect" out of the box then how can a place like GAP stay afloat when one of their main markets is accurizing rifles like the Remington? Not trying to step on any toes, just throwing the question out there as food for thought.


If you want to stray away from the rifle arena we can go into shotguns. Remington makes a pretty reliable budget minded shotgun, but it's far from perfect. Better makers of shotguns include Beretta, Benelli, Perazzi, and list goes up from there.

 

[j706]

Remington makes an middle of the line gun. I have shotguns. they are good functional guns. not the top of the line quality, but very function.

Huhh?

 

[42769vette]

I've tried to stay out of this thread up until this point because I know my viewpoint will be looked down upon by the Remington snobs, but this seems like a simple enough question to answer.

I'm not sure which ones the OP was thinking of, but a couple of the first "production" rifles that came to my mind were AI and Sako.

Then you can also get into the smaller makers that build high-end custom rifles. GAP etc.

If Remington is "perfect" out of the box then how can a place like GAP stay afloat when one of their main markets is accurizing rifles like the Remington? Not trying to step on any toes, just throwing the question out there as food for thought.


If you want to stray away from the rifle arena we can go into shotguns. Remington makes a pretty reliable budget minded shotgun, but it's far from perfect. Better makers of shotguns include Beretta, Benelli, Perazzi, and list goes up from there.

you made my point for me. companies like gap, stiller, bighorn, (the list goes way on) all use the remington as a base. remington is not perfect from the box, but it has more potential than the others was kind of the point i was trying to make

i believe the ai rifles are on a remington design but i could be wrong on that.

shotguns there are no question much better companies than remington,

 

[phylodog]

I'd say Remington has set the standard for accurate bolt action rifles. The 700 is to precision rifles what the 1911 is to handguns. You can buy a base model and get a great gun or you can spend as much money as you want to get a laser. Both the 1911 and the Rem700 have numerous manufacturers copying the design and creating better quality weapons based on the original design. Both the 1911 and the Rem700 have a myriad of after market parts and products to improve their performance.

A Wilson Combat, Ed Brown or Nighthawk are great pistols but they are still 1911s and the credit for the design goes to John Browning. A GAP, Stiller or Surgeon are fantastic top of the line rifles but the credit for the design goes to Remington.

 

[42769vette]

you made my point for me. companies like gap, stiller, bighorn, (the list goes way on) all use the remington as a base. remington is not perfect from the box, but it has more potential than the others was kind of the point i was trying to make

i believe the ai rifles are on a remington design but i could be wrong on that.

shotguns there are no question much better companies than remington,

I'd say Remington has set the standard for accurate bolt action rifles. The 700 is to precision rifles what the 1911 is to handguns. You can buy a base model and get a great gun or you can spend as much money as you want to get a laser. Both the 1911 and the Rem700 have numerous manufacturers copying the design and creating better quality weapons based on the original design. Both the 1911 and the Rem700 have a myriad of after market parts and products to improve their performance.

A Wilson Combat, Ed Brown or Nighthawk are great pistols but they are still 1911s and the credit for the design goes to John Browning. A GAP, Stiller or Surgeon are fantastic top of the line rifles but the credit for the design goes to Remington.

thats what i was trying to say only said alot better. thanks

 

[CountryBoy19]

you made my point for me. companies like gap, stiller, bighorn, (the list goes way on) all use the remington as a base. remington is not perfect from the box, but it has more potential than the others was kind of the point i was trying to make

i believe the ai rifles are on a remington design but i could be wrong on that.

shotguns there are no question much better companies than remington,

Potential does not equal Perfection though.

I think "middle of the line" is a perfect fit for remington rifles. Let me explain why.

They are great budget rifles. They won't break the bank and they are very accurate. But they aren't "perfect", and that is why there are other companies out there improving them.

So you take a middle of the line rifle, and add $2k to it in improvement and it is now a high-end rifle, but so is the price tag.

I'm not bashing the Remington by any means, it is a great rifle out of the box, and an even better rifle if you customize and accurize it. But that all takes money. Adding money to make it better pretty much means that it's middle of the line when it started.

I don't know of any better way to explain what I'm trying to say. Do you get my point about potential does not equal perfection? I think that sums it up pretty well. Potential means there is room for improvement, which means it's not top of the line. Which puts it in the middle of the line IMHO.

 

[42769vette]

Potential does not equal Perfection though.

I think "middle of the line" is a perfect fit for remington rifles. Let me explain why.

They are great budget rifles. They won't break the bank and they are very accurate. But they aren't "perfect", and that is why there are other companies out there improving them.

So you take a middle of the line rifle, and add $2k to it in improvement and it is now a high-end rifle, but so is the price tag.

I'm not bashing the Remington by any means, it is a great rifle out of the box, and an even better rifle if you customize and accurize it. But that all takes money. Adding money to make it better pretty much means that it's middle of the line when it started.

I don't know of any better way to explain what I'm trying to say. Do you get my point about potential does not equal perfection? I think that sums it up pretty well. Potential means there is room for improvement, which means it's not top of the line. Which puts it in the middle of the line IMHO.

yes you are going to drop some cash to make it perfect wich i believe is your point. honestly i think we are saying the same thing only have a diffrent view of it if that makes scence.

imo its potential is what makes it great, in your view its potential (not quite being there yet) makes it middle of the road.

i see your point because when you buy the action it is in its middle stage

 

[CountryBoy19]

yes you are going to drop some cash to make it perfect wich i believe is your point. honestly i think we are saying the same thing only have a diffrent view of it if that makes scence.

imo its potential is what makes it great, in your view its potential (not quite being there yet) makes it middle of the road.

i see your point because when you buy the action it is in its middle stage

Yup, I think we're pretty much on the same page.

And I do agree that it is potential that makes it great as well. That is why I own them. They just aren't perfect as they come out of the factory (nothing that is mass-produced really ever is perfect).

I don't have anything against Remington rifles despite what some here might believe, I just don't give them a free pass because they are R.E.M.I.N.G.T.O.N. I'm equally critical of everything, I don't discriminate between brands.

 

[42769vette]

Yup, I think we're pretty much on the same page.

And I do agree that it is potential that makes it great as well. That is why I own them. They just aren't perfect as they come out of the factory (nothing that is mass-produced really ever is perfect).

I don't have anything against Remington rifles despite what some here might believe, I just don't give them a free pass because they are R.E.M.I.N.G.T.O.N. I'm equally critical of everything, I don't discriminate between brands.

i know i may get flamed for this, but imo savage is as good out of the box or better than remington, but i dont think the savage has the potential. also dont over look the model 70

 

[phylodog]

i know i may get flamed for this, but imo savage is as good out of the box or better than remington, but i dont think the savage has the potential. also dont over look the model 70

I've seen more than one Remington owner embarrassed by someone with a "cheap" Savage rifle. I think Remington has a superior receiver design, Savage seems to know a thing or two about barrels.

 

[Yeah]

If you shoot off a bench in fair weather you may never be disappointed by a Savage. Use one hard and the differences will make themselves known.

 

[phylodog]

If you shoot off a bench in fair weather you may never be disappointed by a Savage. Use one hard and the differences will make themselves known.

Can't disagree with you there. They certainly don't "feel" like they're built to take abuse which is why I don't own one. I beat the living crap out of my Remington and it keeps on ticking.

 

[gglass]

Wow! what a lively debate.

I do stand by the title of my post. I wrote the title to describe the perfection I found in my 700 Police sniper rifle. I do not make a broader claim that all Remingtons are perfect or raise any bars for all other rifles, or even that all 700 Police models are perfect.

What amazed me about the R700P is that it was a quarter-MOA-shooter out of the box and without modifications, custom tuned ammunition or an expensive scope. With a little tweaking on the rifle, perfection was further improved to make the rifle a nearly tenth-MOA shooter, with factory match ammunition. These are accuracy levels that rifles costing 2X, 3X or 4X are not guaranteed to achieve by their manufacturers. I am not saying that more expensive rifles will not shoot to this level of accuracy and precision, because very many will. I am saying that they are not guaranteed to do so. I don't think that I've ever seen a manufacturer guarantee anything better than half-MOA.

A bench-rest or sniper rifle has but one duty... To shoot a projectile with the utmost accuracy and precision. It does not matter what materials or production methods are used to create it. It does not matter if the rifle is aesthetically pleasing to the eye. It does not matter if the rifle is mass produced or custom made. This class of rifle has only one measure "perfection"... Will it accurately and precisely hit its intended target.

The basis for my claim of perfection is explained by the following definition of the relationship between Accuracy and Precision:
In the fields of science, engineering, industry and statistics, the accuracy of a measurement system is the degree of closeness of measurements of a quantity to its actual (true) value. The precision of a measurement system, also called reproducibility or repeatability, is the degree to which repeated measurements under unchanged conditions show the same results.

I stand by my declaration of Remington perfection, but only as it applies to my sub-$1000 R.E.M.I.N.G.T.O.N. 700 Police.

The best example so far of my Remington's accuracy and precision:

The proof is in the pudding.

 

[CountryBoy19]

i know i may get flamed for this, but imo savage is as good out of the box or better than remington, but i dont think the savage has the potential. also dont over look the model 70

I would also agree with that statement.

Wow! what a lively debate.

I wouldn't quite call it a debate so much as a discussion. I think 42769vette and I were on the same page all along, just looking at it from different angles.

I think you got an exceptionally accurate out of the box Remington. That is not the norm. About the accuracy guarantee, Remington doesn't have one either. As a matter of fact, I think if they had one even close to other, high-end makers, they would get a lot of rifles back. Not every one can be as good as the other's out of the box. It's a statistical spread, and using 1 rifle as a basis to say they're all perfect (I realize now that's not what you were saying) is flawed.

For that reason I'll stand by my statement that Remington isn't perfect at all, but they do bring a lot of potential to the table.

This is in no way meant to be an argument or debate, just sharing my take on things.

 

[42769vette]

this debate is also nothing on your rifle. you defintally got a gem. ill go as far as to say ive never got or seen a factory rifle to shoot like yours does with factory amm0 normally you have to try X cobinations to find the perfect load for your specific rifle. federal hit your rifle dead on with fgmm.

 

[gglass]

I would also agree with that statement.


I wouldn't quite call it a debate so much as a discussion. I think 42769vette and I were on the same page all along, just looking at it from different angles.

I think you got an exceptionally accurate out of the box Remington. That is not the norm. About the accuracy guarantee, Remington doesn't have one either. As a matter of fact, I think if they had one even close to other, high-end makers, they would get a lot of rifles back. Not every one can be as good as the other's out of the box. It's a statistical spread, and using 1 rifle as a basis to say they're all perfect (I realize now that's not what you were saying) is flawed.

For that reason I'll stand by my statement that Remington isn't perfect at all, but they do bring a lot of potential to the table.

This is in no way meant to be an argument or debate, just sharing my take on things.

Remington does in fact have a sub-MOA guarantee on a few of their high end rifles like the their custom shop 40-X line, M24 SWS and even the more pedestrian the 700 P / LTR. The sub-MOA guarantee is only honored on the 700P / LTR if you are an LE agency, as this is the intended market.

People like to lump the 700P together with the truly civilian-market 700SPS and this is not a proper pairing of two different firearms. The SPS line is assembled in the main plant on the assembly line, but the 700P is assembled by the LE/military division within the Ilion, NY facility. Although it is not assembled by the smaller custom shop division, it is also not a mass-produced rifle from the main plant. The custom shop and the LE/Military divisions get 1st dibs on the best receivers and barrels. It is perfectly acceptable for a hunting rifle to shoot over an inch or two at 100-yards, but it is not acceptable for a LE or military sniper rifle to shoot that loose.

 

[1$Chuck]

I shot a little bit more today. Over the weekend, I made up a squeeze bag and lightened my trigger a little bit (not enough as its still pretty stiff). Anyway, I thought I'd share the results. Kind of a weird looking group but it was the best one I had today. I'm still way out of practice and had several groups with two touching and one about an inch way from them. I'm happy knowing that the rifle is still much more capable than me at this point.



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700P .308 Hand loaded ammo 168gr SMK w/ 42gr IMR 4064 in Lake City M118LR brass.

 

[gglass]

Looking good Chuck.


Sorry for the delay... I've been pretty busy lately.


On another note - Where do you shoot your rifle around your neck of the woods? I visit my sister near Shelbyville quite often, and could probably make it over your way to shoot with you sometime.

 

[gglass]

Welcome to Spring folks!

It was such a nice day today that I decided to head to the range after work this evening. I wanted to really get the feel of my Remmy now that it has been skim-bedded and the new Weaver Tactical 3-15x50 FFP has been mounted. I can only say that I am even more pleased than I was last fall.

Instead of working on the ultimate groups, I decided that I would try something a little different. (OK. So there is one group) I made up some pretty unique "hostage" targets that give the shooter less than a dime's worth of area to hit. Below are the results at 100 yards:

My reworked 700P today:

Color me happy once again!