IDPA Flagrant Penalty-Failure to Engage

[Grelber]

Last time I looked the person that wins the IDPA or the USPSA match is the one that shoots fastest AND accurate.

Minor power factor scoring (USPSA 125 pf and below) makes the two games more similar, C's and D's (-1, -3) hurt.

 

[Grelber]

I shoot both as well - the ones who bash either, don't.

I like to shoot both and bash one or the other depending upon my mood and audience.

That is just me though.

 

[in625shooter]

The animosity from the IDPA side existed since before the sport was created. I was around and participating in email lists when IDPA was just a concept and about to become a reality. There were a lot of sour grapes among some of the creators of the sport and from the beginning, IDPA was "not IPSC." I wish I had saved some of the discussions, but a lot of it boiled down to doing things differently than USPSA solely because USPSA did it, not because it had any other reason.

I haven't shot much IPSC the last few years but have gotten back into IDPA and am enjoying it. The thing that sort of irked me about IPSC was it became a equipment race. And it is somewhat true still. Every type of marketing has played out with IPSC. I believe it was great for production, 1911 and revolver. I'm not so much sold on now you can use 8 shot revolvers now EXCEPT the world shoot you have to use 6 shot so the 625 is cool again, PCC, carry optics and whatever else comes out next.

I've seen the snobs in IPSC and a few Tactical Johnnie's in IDPA no different than any other activities, Jeep's, motorcycles, golf etc. But IDPA is pretty straight forward most of the time with very little rule manipulating that IPSC is. But that being said just shoot whatever is close to you. Shooting is Shooting

 

[Indy-Mike]

The animosity from the IDPA side existed since before the sport was created. I was around and participating in email lists when IDPA was just a concept and about to become a reality hole in cardboard. There were a lot of sour grapes among some of the creators of the sport and from the beginning, IDPA was "not IPSC." I wish I had saved some of the discussions, but a lot of it boiled down to doing things differently than USPSA solely because USPSA did it, not because it had any other reason.

Thanks I was unaware of this, just seems a shame since they ate Jim star both games tha involve holes in cardboard. Can't we all just have some fun.

 

[rhino]

Thanks I was unaware of this, just seems a shame since they ate Jim star both games tha involve holes in cardboard. Can't we all just have some fun.

It's kind of like the rivalry between Norwegians and Swedes. No one who isn't either Norwegian or Swede is able to detect the vast differences between the two.

 

[LP1]

This thread is an example of why I don't participate in this kind of competition. Waaaay too complicated, and too much nit-picking on esoteric minute details.

 

[rvb]

Eh, kind of a throwing out the baby with the bath water kind of thing... Practical shooting is a hoot. Avoid these threads online and you'll avoid 90% of the nit picking.

 

[igotdiesel2]

This thread is an example of why I don't participate in this kind of competition. Waaaay too complicated, and too much nit-picking on esoteric minute details.

This rarely happens on the range. For the most part if we mess up a stage or think we got a bad call we grumble and go on. I don't make anything off a good score or bad, I just love shooting and hanging around guys that share the same interests as I. Plus I get to shoot with my Dad, what could be better! -Jason

 

[E7Wrangler]

I second that motion. I love shooting all types, love it even more when I got to do it with my Dad and now with my sons. Practical Pistol, IDPA, Cowboy, just shot my first 3 gun match as well. I figure as long as I am 1. Safe 2. Friendly 3. Pitch in to help I can go shoot about anywhere and be accepted. I don't shoot any of them to win the Caddy, I do my best and enjoy.

Now the next thing we all need to do is bring a relative or friend along and get them involved. The more shooters the better!

 

[Cameramonkey]

Eh, kind of a throwing out the baby with the bath water kind of thing... Practical shooting is a hoot. Avoid these threads online and you'll avoid 90% of the nit picking.

And figure out who the hard core competitors are and avoid their squads. I'll be the first to call my own foul. Heck, I can think of 3x Ive called attention to a nick on a no shoot of mine that the RO missed. But nothing is more annoying than some squadmate that comes racing up from the peanut gallery waving his arms making a big deal about how the shooter messed it up and the RO cant be trusted to catch the foul. (and especially annoying when you realize he thinks he is above pasting and hasnt gotten up off his a** except to shoot or move to the next bay)

 

[rvb]

And figure out who the hard core competitors are and avoid their squads. I'll be the first to call my own foul. Heck, I can think of 3x Ive called attention to a nick on a no shoot of mine that the RO missed. But nothing is more annoying than some squadmate that comes racing up from the peanut gallery waving his arms making a big deal about how the shooter messed it up and the RO cant be trusted to catch the foul. (and especially annoying when you realize he thinks he is above pasting and hasnt gotten up off his a** except to shoot or move to the next bay)

Youve described a##holes, not hardcore competitors.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Youve described a##holes, not hardcore competitors.

Well, sometimes they are one and the same. Luckily I can count the guys on one hand I shoot with like that. (not surprisingly, the biggest one was banned from here and reminds me when he sees my hat how many of y'all are basement dwellers that dont even shoot. )

 

[Vigilant]

That's why you just go, shoot, and STFU. I've not been active in either for years, because of the rooolz, and the playaz! I do go, sign up, and shoot, just to keep up with the Jones', but it ain't life or death for me, just another form of training.

 

[Cameramonkey]

That's why you just go, shoot, and STFU. I've not been active in either for years, because of the rooolz, and the playaz! I do go, sign up, and shoot, just to keep up with the Jones', but it ain't life or death for me, just another form of training.

Same here. As long as I dont DQ and leave with the same number of holes I arrived with, I'm a happy camper.

 

[rhino]

I second that motion. I love shooting all types, love it even more when I got to do it with my Dad and now with my sons. Practical Pistol, IDPA, Cowboy, just shot my first 3 gun match as well. I figure as long as I am 1. Safe 2. Friendly 3. Pitch in to help I can go shoot about anywhere and be accepted. I don't shoot any of them to win the Caddy, I do my best and enjoy.

Now the next thing we all need to do is bring a relative or friend along and get them involved. The more shooters the better!

And you figure correctly!

And figure out who the hard core competitors are and avoid their squads. I'll be the first to call my own foul. Heck, I can think of 3x Ive called attention to a nick on a no shoot of mine that the RO missed. But nothing is more annoying than some squadmate that comes racing up from the peanut gallery waving his arms making a big deal about how the shooter messed it up and the RO cant be trusted to catch the foul. (and especially annoying when you realize he thinks he is above pasting and hasnt gotten up off his a** except to shoot or move to the next bay)

Youve described a##holes, not hardcore competitors.

rvb is 100% correct.

Well, sometimes they are one and the same. Luckily I can count the guys on one hand I shoot with like that. (not surprisingly, the biggest one was banned from here and reminds me when he sees my hat how many of y'all are basement dwellers that dont even shoot. )

Well now you have to name names.

 

[Bosshoss]

Too many rules? Yes there are some rules but I know lots of shooters and some of them have been shooting 20+ years that don't know but a few of the rules and have been getting along fine.
I do the new shooters meeting for a couple of the clubs down in the southern part of the state and I cover all the rules you need to shoot a match in 15 minutes. 75% of those rules are SAFETY rules that are common sense and range specific.
There are lots of rules that apply to the matches but you don't need to worry about them to start out and have fun. I have been a RO for almost 25 years and I don't know every rule in the book and I don't care about knowing them all. There are several rules that can be interpreted a couple of ways and different RO's will have different takes on them. NONE of that matters to just shoot and have fun and learn the game. (except the Safety rules)

There are jerks and a##holes in every aspect of life. If you run into one on the range at a competition you have run into the rare one in our sport. Just because a person is serious(hardcore) about a shooting sport doesn't qualify them as one of those. In fact there would be much to learn from a "hardcore competitor". Squading with them can be a learning experience and if you see them do something during a run that you don't understand, give them a couple of minutes after the run and ask them why they did that. Most all of them will share info with you without hesitation. It's fascinating to hang back and listen to some of the shooters discussing the best way to shoot a stage during the walk thru. They compare notes and strategies with each other. Much can be learned here.

Many reasons/excuses to not shoot competition but too many rules is silly and you are missing out on the fun. If you go to a match and try it and you get a penalty and don't know why just ask someone and they will explain it. You won't be the first one to have gotten a penalty or been DQ'ed for breaking a safety rule. Learn from it and remember have fun.

As for the equipment race thing that is not a USPSA/IDPA thing that is a shooter thing.
There are lots of divisions out there where a stock out of the box gun can win or do well in. Single Stack, Production, Revolver, even limited with a stock hi cap gun.
No one is making you have a open gun or high dollar limited gun unless you want one. I know lots of shooters that have heavily modified guns that never shoot competition. Some just like to push the edge equipment wise but that is for sure not required to shoot competition.

 

[in625shooter]

Too many rules? Yes there are some rules but I know lots of shooters and some of them have been shooting 20+ years that don't know but a few of the rules and have been getting along fine.
I do the new shooters meeting for a couple of the clubs down in the southern part of the state and I cover all the rules you need to shoot a match in 15 minutes. 75% of those rules are SAFETY rules that are common sense and range specific.
There are lots of rules that apply to the matches but you don't need to worry about them to start out and have fun. I have been a RO for almost 25 years and I don't know every rule in the book and I don't care about knowing them all. There are several rules that can be interpreted a couple of ways and different RO's will have different takes on them. NONE of that matters to just shoot and have fun and learn the game. (except the Safety rules)

There are jerks and a##holes in every aspect of life. If you run into one on the range at a competition you have run into the rare one in our sport. Just because a person is serious(hardcore) about a shooting sport doesn't qualify them as one of those. In fact there would be much to learn from a "hardcore competitor". Squading with them can be a learning experience and if you see them do something during a run that you don't understand, give them a couple of minutes after the run and ask them why they did that. Most all of them will share info with you without hesitation. It's fascinating to hang back and listen to some of the shooters discussing the best way to shoot a stage during the walk thru. They compare notes and strategies with each other. Much can be learned here.

Many reasons/excuses to not shoot competition but too many rules is silly and you are missing out on the fun. If you go to a match and try it and you get a penalty and don't know why just ask someone and they will explain it. You won't be the first one to have gotten a penalty or been DQ'ed for breaking a safety rule. Learn from it and remember have fun.

As for the equipment race thing that is not a USPSA/IDPA thing that is a shooter thing.
There are lots of divisions out there where a stock out of the box gun can win or do well in. Single Stack, Production, Revolver, even limited with a stock hi cap gun.
No one is making you have a open gun or high dollar limited gun unless you want one. I know lots of shooters that have heavily modified guns that never shoot competition. Some just like to push the edge equipment wise but that is for sure not required to shoot competition.

Bosshoss, Respectfully I disagree about your equipment race comparison. In my experience of shooting matches the equipment race comes where the production division is not. Yes one can shoot their stock Glock but they will only do it for practice (which is fine) but if you look at the state, region or nationals even as phenomenal shooters as the top shooters are their guns are far from production.

That's one thing I give kudos to IDOA for. Very little mods are done compared to USPSA production nill cuts and everything else.

And on revolvers it is an equipment race because while IPSC doesn't allow 8 shot revolvers in the world body (world shoot) o ly 6 shot, USPSA opened up 8 shot revolvers so a revolver shooter like myself can not compete with a 625 to a 929 8 shot for a whole match.

It's also funny the world body in IPSC overseas at the world shoot allow production class to have 15 rounds I. Mags but good ole USPSA restricts production in the states to 10 rounds. So how is that ok to not do but opening up revolvers to more rounds is?

My point is there really is an equipment race in USPSA IPSC and some of their rules along with competitors drive it. And some have been perterbed enough to not shoot a match over it.

Again just Respectfully discussing what I have observed.

 

[Bosshoss]

Bosshoss, Respectfully I disagree about your equipment race comparison. In my experience of shooting matches the equipment race comes where the production division is not. Yes one can shoot their stock Glock but they will only do it for practice (which is fine) but if you look at the state, region or nationals even as phenomenal shooters as the top shooters are their guns are far from production.

No problem disagreeing. I stand by my statement though as I have seen many Grand Masters and Masters shooting Glocks or other guns that have very little done to them. I know lots of shooters with $5000+ open guns or $3000 limited guns that still shoot in the lower classes. Better equipment didn't advance their finishes any. I guess I'm still it's the Indian and not the arrow kind of guy. IMO you can't buy skills you have to work for them.

I still say this is supposed to be fun and you don't need the latest and greatest blaster to have fun.(Especially just starting out)

That's one thing I give kudos to IDOA for. Very little mods are done compared to USPSA production nill cuts and everything else.

​I have seen some pretty exotic and expensive IDPA guns.

And on revolvers it is an equipment race because while IPSC doesn't allow 8 shot revolvers in the world body (world shoot) o ly 6 shot, USPSA opened up 8 shot revolvers so a revolver shooter like myself can not compete with a 625 to a 929 8 shot for a whole match.


I hate to bust your bubble here but 8 shot guns, scored minor are IPSC legal now.
I had several 625's when the rule change happened and still have my main one that I shot in competition and it is now my dry fire gun. Sold rest of them. BTW USPSA isn't the only one that makes rule changes that obsoletes a gun. I know a few people that quit IDPA over the 4" barrel rule in revolver making their 5" guns illegal.

It's also funny the world body in IPSC overseas at the world shoot allow production class to have 15 rounds I. Mags but good ole USPSA restricts production in the states to 10 rounds. So how is that ok to not do but opening up revolvers to more rounds is?

I don't know what the reasoning for the 10 vs 15 rounds is but I do know that 10 round production in USPSA is one of the biggest divisions(very close to or exceeding limited) in USPSA. They should leave it alone as it is working now.

My point is there really is an equipment race in USPSA IPSC and some of their rules along with competitors drive it. And some have been perterbed enough to not shoot a match over it.

I shoot matches to have fun and be with my friends but I'm as competitive as anyone. I have many excuses like they are half my age or not as fat as I am. While I can lose weight I can't get younger or get my eyesight back. I'm not going to quit because the young skinny guys have a competitive advantage over me. Why would the equipment make any difference?

Again just Respectfully discussing what I have observed.

As I am.
Hope to see you on the range some day. Hopefully still shooting revolver.

 

[igotdiesel2]

I have been shooting IDPA for almost 3 years to date. February of last year I replaced my G23 with a Springfield 1911 Range Officer in 9mm. The only mods I did was add a Wilson full length guide rod, a Wilson beveled mag well, and Hogue wrap around grips. I shoot ESP and I am a Marksmen. I shot 2nd in the State Match last year. I don't think that is bad considering I only the pistol for 7 months. While I say my doing better is in part the gun, it's only because I prefer the 1911 grip angle over the Glocks. I know it has way more to do with practicing dry fire drills in a mirror and quick mag changes using dummy rounds. Like in625shooter says, it is still me, I'm 46, my eyes aren't as awesome as the once were and I'm not fast by any means.

It is a lot of fun chatting with the guys that have shot regional and nation matches. They will help you every chance they get. It is all part of the GAME! -Jason

 

[rvb]

Respectfully I disagree about your equipment race comparison. In my experience of shooting matches the equipment race comes where the production division is not. Yes one can shoot their stock Glock but they will only do it for practice (which is fine) but if you look at the state, region or nationals even as phenomenal shooters as the top shooters are their guns are far from production.

That's one thing I give kudos to IDOA for. Very little mods are done compared to USPSA production nill cuts and everything else.

...

My point is there really is an equipment race in USPSA IPSC and some of their rules along with competitors drive it. And some have been perterbed enough to not shoot a match over it.

Uspsa production and IDPA ssp equipment rules are (or at least were when I used to shoot IDPA) very similar. I used to use the same gun for both. I made GM with a G34 that was wildly modified... Sites, grip tape, and a taran connector [sarcasm]. the CZs/clones have become popular, and are in some regards better, but Vogel has proven the very top guys can still do well with a nearly stock Glock. I could try to buy my way up with better guns, but it wouldn't get me much in real performance... The money spent would do better to be invested in ammo. That I don't finish as well in majors as I used to is due to my lack of practice while everyone else has been working hard, not because everyone else is spending coin on tangfos.

My limited gun is also wildly modified... A G35 with the same mods as my production gun. I've beat a lot of folks shooting very pricy 2011s. As for all the guys who beat me, I give credit to the shooter, not the gun (even if I might drool over their gun).

someone using equipment race as an excuse to not shoot matches, is, frankly, just looking for excuses... And to be really frank, probably not only excuses for not shooting, but probably for sucking also.

-rvb