Indiana Constitutional Carry - HB1022 (2018)

[KellyinAvon]

This hearing is even more difficult than the previous hearings I've listened too this year. (all of them combined) ... perhaps the frustration is just cumulative effect.

Thanks for taking one for the team, Bill. I'll give the latest version of HB 1424 a look. I may skip the video, Taylor X3 is a little more than I can take on a rainy Saturday. That guy should demand his money back from IU, learning did not take place.

 

[KellyinAvon]

I'm just reading up on this 30 page or so thread, so forgive me if this is a question answered later in the thread or elsewhere on INGO...

Regarding the 5-year LTCH and exemption from NICS check when purchasing a firearm: how does information on a disqualifying conviction (felony, domestic abuse, involuntarily committed, etc.) prohibit one from purchasing a firearm from a FFL? Will the 5-year LTCH card be physically confiscated by LEO when it is revoked? I'm assuming that this is the case and is probably workable as disqualifying convictions or determinations of mental illness will in nearly all (all?) cases involve a court proceeding (as they should).

Just curios as I've not yet seen this side of the issue discussed...

Morning Gopher, your hole is probably flooded this morning (I kid, I kid).

I take it you mean if someone has the new 5 year NICS exempt LTCH and becomes a prohibited possessor. The short answer is "I don't know." The 5 year license lines up Indiana's LTCH with Federal laws concerning NICS exemptions. Would an FFL take your 5-Year Larry (I just made that up, has a ring to it) and your driver's license and check an ISP database to make sure everything is still proper? I could see that.

Stats time! According to a 2016 study by the Crime Prevention Research Organization, individuals who are licensed to carry a handgun are four-times less likely to commit a misdemeanor or felony (wait for it...) than the Police. WE are an incredibly law-abiding group. The general public would look much less law abiding without us.

 

[gopher]

OK, I been thinking about this, bear with me please. When in doubt I fall back on my USAF days, we are a group of individuals. Why don't we go with a unified command and draft Guy to exercise Command and Control authority over the Constitutional Carry Operations? 2A lawyer, has a radio show called The Gun Guy (not on the local swap-shop channel, WIBC is a blowtorch), on NRA TV every Wednesday? Obvious choice.

We all bring different things to the fight. We have many fronts and everyone fits somewhere.

I'm in with this.

While I've sent some letters to my IN legislators and DC legislators regarding firearms issues, I'm at the point where I want to dedicate more of my time to help getting sane firearms laws passed and insane ones revoked. Getting better organized is the answer here I believe (just look at what the other side is doing). Let me know where I can help.

 

[KellyinAvon]

PASSED - Vote was 7 for 3 against - ALONG PARTY LINES of course.

no changes - but next stop is Senate Appropriations Committee (not scheduled yet, but must be done next week)

The "Relford Amendment" (having both a Lifetime and a 5-year NICS exempt license) is in there and will go into affect 1 Jul 2018. The "Free-Larry" date (I made that up) is 1 July 2019.

I don't ever want to be an elected official. I'm going to remain a behind the scenes guy who occasionally shows up at the Statehouse. With that said, when do we press with ConC? Part of me says we never stopped, part of me says wait until the 2020 session after the cops get clobbered with umpteen zillion Free-Larry applications. Got a problem with too much workload? I can fix it. It's called Constitutional Carry.

 

[gopher]

Morning Gopher, your hole is probably flooded this morning (I kid, I kid).

I take it you mean if someone has the new 5 year NICS exempt LTCH and becomes a prohibited possessor. The short answer is "I don't know." The 5 year license lines up Indiana's LTCH with Federal laws concerning NICS exemptions. Would an FFL take your 5-Year Larry (I just made that up, has a ring to it) and your driver's license and check an ISP database to make sure everything is still proper? I could see that.

Stats time! According to a 2016 study by the Crime Prevention Research Organization, individuals who are licensed to carry a handgun are four-times less likely to commit a misdemeanor or felony (wait for it...) than the Police. WE are an incredibly law-abiding group. The general public would look much less law abiding without us.

Good joke there, KIA :-)

Not to be too pedantic about this, but if we're just substituting a state version of a "background check" for the federal NICS check, what's the point?

I suppose there might be an argument that a state level NICS-type check might be quicker but I've not experienced any substantial delay in getting NICS approval (anecdote does not equal data as always). One might even make the argument that we are now creating TWO databases of lawful firearms possession status instead of just one. That leads to the question of how do you keep those two databases sync'd up (not a trivial issue, especially when you're dealing with two government entities). One just needs to look at the history of NICS failures due to missing disqualifying information to see that this is a recipe for more failure.

I'm a big supporter of John Lott and his research and have seen the study that you reference. That study should be used in more cases to dispel the fear of people who aren't gun owners and view those who do own guns as knuckle dragging neanderthals who are just looking for an excuse to blow someone away. Anti-gun folks intentionally use emotionally loaded terms like "assault weapon" to remove logic from the discussion of firearms issues.

To all INGOers: If you don't already support the Crime Prevention Research CENTER, you should go to crimeresearch.org and send a few $ his way. He is the most prominent academic to publish research that shows the benefits of the 2A. Lott also has several books out that well worth reading ("More Guns, Less Crime", "The War on Guns", "The Bias Against Guns").

 

[KellyinAvon]

Good joke there, KIA :-)

Not to be too pedantic about this, but if we're just substituting a state version of a "background check" for the federal NICS check, what's the point?

I suppose there might be an argument that a state level NICS-type check might be quicker but I've not experienced any substantial delay in getting NICS approval (anecdote does not equal data as always). One might even make the argument that we are now creating TWO databases of lawful firearms possession status instead of just one. That leads to the question of how do you keep those two databases sync'd up (not a trivial issue, especially when you're dealing with two government entities). One just needs to look at the history of NICS failures due to missing disqualifying information to see that this is a recipe for more failure.

I'm a big supporter of John Lott and his research and have seen the study that you reference. That study should be used in more cases to dispel the fear of people who aren't gun owners and view those who do own guns as knuckle dragging neanderthals who are just looking for an excuse to blow someone away. Anti-gun folks intentionally use emotionally loaded terms like "assault weapon" to remove logic from the discussion of firearms issues.

To all INGOers: If you don't already support the Crime Prevention Research CENTER, you should go to crimeresearch.org and send a few $ his way. He is the most prominent academic to publish research that shows the benefits of the 2A. Lott also has several books out that well worth reading ("More Guns, Less Crime", "The War on Guns", "The Bias Against Guns").

Checking a database is an assumption on my part. It would be much less than the ATF 4473 process. I can't keep Dr Lott's Center name straight in my head.

 

[brotherbill3]

I'm just reading up on this 30 page or so thread, so forgive me if this is a question answered later in the thread or elsewhere on INGO...

Regarding the 5-year LTCH and exemption from NICS check when purchasing a firearm: how does information on a disqualifying conviction (felony, domestic abuse, involuntarily committed, etc.) prohibit one from purchasing a firearm from a FFL? Will the 5-year LTCH card be physically confiscated by LEO when it is revoked? I'm assuming that this is the case and is probably workable as disqualifying convictions or determinations of mental illness will in nearly all (all?) cases involve a court proceeding (as they should).

Just curios as I've not yet seen this side of the issue discussed...

THE GUY FROM ISP (LT) in Wednesday's hearing - explained how the "Brady Exempt" works:

The Data base for LTCH's is still remaining - this is tied to your state ID -

The Gun STore / FFL - is required to check that the LTCH is valid (not a Back Ground Check) - just a validity of your LTCH check.
Therefore - if a precluding offense - which is one that would void your LTCH - occurs, and you are booked charged etc - when you are entered into AFIS at the jail -
You're info / status is automatically updated with in the Computer System for the LTCH status ...

Charged with Precluding Offence - Boom. Done. - State Police System updates as soon as entered.
You may retain physical LTCH - but it is VOID.

obviously doesn't cover private sales - but those are already protected by "knowingly and intentionally" ...



BTW - and ETA - this was about the best part of the testimony given. ...

 

[KellyinAvon]

Another point of note: two of the three Senate Sponsors (Senators Bray and Holdman) are on the Appropriations Committee.

 

[brotherbill3]

MARCH 1 Appropriations Committee Hearing - 9 AM Room 431.

1424 is 5th - and says NO PUBLIC TESTIMONY (as do others) ...
This is the last day for them to clear this bill out of committee for 2nd reading and to get this finished this session.


https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2018/committees/appropriations_3700

Click the Agenda Link

 

[Trigger Time]

Is anyone totally confused about what is even going on now? I am. I don't even know what the heck has happened or what's still waiting to be voted on. I stay active and I'm totally confused. Probably bosmas plan

 

[brotherbill3]

Is anyone totally confused about what is even going on now? I am. I don't even know what the heck has happened or what's still waiting to be voted on. I stay active and I'm totally confused. Probably bosmas plan

The bill is as passed from the House and wasn't altered in the Senate Committee ... but because it affects budget in a significant way - it needs appropriation committee hearing. This is also why there is a delay in it going into effect until after next Jan-April Budgetary IGA session.

 

[brotherbill3]

Better list - sorry I don't usually look this way and I wish I had -

House Calendar - Indiana General Assembly, 2018 Session

also lists amendment author ...
several are by Lucas.
I know Lucas posted over the weekend "the gloves are off government" on his FB page after the news about the 4 in FL hiding behind cars broke.

 

[brotherbill3]

ETA: ... DANG IT - silly thread names - ...

This: (below) belong in the thread on SB 33 ...

Skimmed amendments - Lehman and Lucas one's look good (both R's)
Forrestal, Delaney, Hamilton - are horrid and don't even belong on this continent.

OK I think 1 was replaced by either 4 or 5 - and 3 replaces 2 (both are similar) ...
the remaining 1 (either 4 or 5) is Lucas's version of 3. ...

Everything above that is garbage - FARGO - if you can look the first few - ... 3 and (4 / 5) cleans up the mess about property references ... Lucas other one(s) takes a big chuck of authority away from the GOV. ...

 

[chipbennett]

The bill is as passed from the House and wasn't altered in the Senate Committee ... but because it affects budget in a significant way - it needs appropriation committee hearing. This is also why there is a delay in it going into effect until after next Jan-April Budgetary IGA session.

This is probably a naive and silly question, but: if a bill that has already passed one chamber, and the appropriate committee in the other chamber, must go to the Appropriations committee due to budgetary impact prior to going before the full chamber, shouldn't the scope of the Appropriations committee's proposed amendments be required to be limited to... budgetary considerations?

 

[brotherbill3]

This is probably a naive and silly question, but: if a bill that has already passed one chamber, and the appropriate committee in the other chamber, must go to the Appropriations committee due to budgetary impact prior to going before the full chamber, shouldn't the scope of the Appropriations committee's proposed amendments be required to be limited to... budgetary considerations?

.....

You would think that maybe - but since - changing other language by amendment
- can change the budget aspects in this case ...

While I despise the one Senator for being obtuse - the workings on some matters, I'm still figuring out.

 

[brotherbill3]

OK
HB 1424:
S 02/22/2018 Committee report: do pass adopted; reassigned to Committee on Appropriations

almost thought they let it croak, but it went through. ...

 

[K_W]

WIBC says bill is stalled.

 

[brotherbill3]

WIBC says bill is stalled.

You're right - I miss read it ... (sorry everyone) ...

so they KILLED EVERYTHING ... it needed to come out of committee today.

 

[brotherbill3]

Cross posting to SB 33 and Constitutional Carry Threads:

The critical comment is this:
Because both bills did pass one chamber earlier in the session, provisions could still be added to other bills as the House and Senate iron out differences over the next two weeks. Bosma says the background check provisions won't return, but he and Long both say they'll try to get back to something closer to what was originally filed.

Both chambers had passed different versions of the fee repeal. Bosma says the House and Senate Public Policy chairmen -- Representative Ben Smaltz (R-Auburn) and Senator Ron Alting (R-Lafayette) -- will be in charge of trying to find common ground.


House, Senate Reverse Course on Bills Relaxing Gun Laws | 93.1 WIBC

FULL TEXT QUOTE:

(INDIANAPOLIS) - Two bills reducing fees and restrictions on guns are dead at the statehouse -- for the time being.

The House had overwhelmingly approved a bill repealing the fee for lifetime gun permits, while exempting holders of five-year permits from undergoing background checks when they buy a gun. But that vote came before the Florida school shooting which has rekindled a national debate over guns. House Speaker Brian Bosma and Senate President Pro Tem David Long both say now isn't the time to relax background checks. The Senate Appropriations Committee pulled the plug on the bill, declining to give it a hearing before a noon Thursday deadline.


Meanwhile, the House declined to vote on a Senate bill carving out an exception to Indiana's ban on guns on school property. Indianapolis Republican Jack Sandlin's bill would have permitted churches which share a campus with schools to allow permitholders to carry guns when school is not in session. That bill, too, had passed with overwhelming support. But legislators had loaded the House calendar with 19 amendments from both sides of the gun issue. Bosma says several of those amendments would have triggered "very emotional and high-pitched" debates that would get in the way of thoughtful legislating.


The bill had languished on the House calendar for four days, with Democratic amendments to ban bump stocks or automatic weapons, and Republican amendments to repeal not only the ban on guns at school, but bans at the statehouse, state parks, the State Fairgrounds, and casinos.


Because both bills did pass one chamber earlier in the session, provisions could still be added to other bills as the House and Senate iron out differences over the next two weeks. Bosma says the background check provisions won't return, but he and Long both say they'll try to get back to something closer to what was originally filed.


Both chambers had passed different versions of the fee repeal. Bosma says the House and Senate Public Policy chairmen -- Representative Ben Smaltz (R-Auburn) and Senator Ron Alting (R-Lafayette) -- will be in charge of trying to find common ground.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Looks like Oklahoma got it done

Oklahoma House passes ?Constitutional Carry? gun bill | KFOR.com