Indiana DNR - Why trees are being cut in Yellowwood Forest

[two70]

Agreed. We as humans seem to always think we need to manage and make things better. Some forest area should be left alone. We don’t need to meddle in everything. Forests were there before us, and they’ll be there after us. To think that we have to manage the wild is pretty narcissistic and inane IMHO.

Neglect is still a form of management....... just a really poor one.

Uh.....just so much wrong here. Not really sure where to start.

I take it you haven’t hiked the clear cut sections in MMSF. They aren’t just “growing back” and they weren’t properly “re-planted”. The clear cut sections are now a bunch of sticker bush filled ****holes, and they’re choking out any trees that get started there. Lots of ruined old growth.

I use that forest area very frequently, and what they did pisses me off. I’ll never live long enough to see it how it was.

It takes an extremely shortsighted, selfish and frankly ignorant way of thinking to put your aesthetic preferences and convenience ahead of the actual health of the forest. Those mature forests that you mistakenly call old growth are wastelands largely devoid of wildlife and plant diversity.

 

[seedubs1]

This is all correct and fine. But what you’re posting is not what was done in MMSF. And what you guys will be fighting now is distrust.

"I agree wholeheartedly ! Owning some wooded recreational land that borders Owen Putnam State Forest, I see firsthand (unfortunately) the result of the so called "managed logging". Beautiful old growth stands of trees disappear, and like you, I'll never live long enough to see nice regeneration .... if it happens at all ! "

This "old-growth" you are referencing is all second/third growth. Go find some 1935 era aerial photos, you'll see that much of the forested landscape we have now was denuded of trees back then. The reason we have the oak forests we have now is because of the disturbance the settlers did from the mid 1800's to early 1900's. The abuse of the land, burning, grazing etc favored oak regeneration. The constant die back of the oak sapling tops caused the roots systems to build. When the land was abandoned and left alone the oak sprouts took off.

As foresters we need to cause disturbance to maintain Oak for future generations. Our disturbance is logging. Through logging we allow light to the forest floor increasing regeneration. The implementation of fire simulates grazing, it top kills the overstory killing the shallow rooted trees while strengthening the oak root systems. The oaks then have energy to coppice with an advanced root system being able to compete with the faster growing poplar.

Timber is a crop and needs harvested to maintain forest health. What happens to corn when you wait to harvest it in the spring? your yields will suck. Same with timber, when you wait too long you'll find that a large percentage of trees have died and gone down hill. If you believe in God, then you understand that nothing lives forever. Trees don't. You can see it first hand in Spring Mill. Go drive through Donaldson's Woods. You'll see tree after tree standing dead or blown over. Underneath is Beech and Maple (shade tolerant trees) no Oak.

As a forester I don't pick on healthy timber, most regeneration openings I make are of trees that NEED cut. Trees mature, when the stand is overmature and dying then I start it over. You can pick on trees that are going downhill in a stand and realize that all the trees are of the same age class. While some might be healthy they are not long for this world. What I'm saying is if you get the dying/low vigor trees and leave a tree of the same age, likely the tree you leave will be dead when the stand is re-visited 15-20 years down the road. It's like putting a 95 year old person in a nursing home, you might get a few more years but are likely to loose them in the near future. Same with trees, I know its a cruel analogy but it's true. In addition stands are regenerated to remove areas will the trees simply will not improve with time. For example an patch of trees damaged by fire years ago, start them over. Another ex. is to benefit species selection, removing non-native pine the get native hardwoods.

Do this for me, go to a woods that's been cut, count the rings of growth on the stumps. Likely you'll realize that the "old-growth" forest you are in was bare ground not very long ago. Go to those briar thickets filled with wildlife in 15 years and see what it looks like.

I am a forester and understand management. I encourage the anti logging groups to go to workshops put on by your nrcs, local dnr and learn about timber management.

 

[seedubs1]

Again.....apparently you haven’t hiked MMSF where they claimed this same thing. 6 trees an acre my ass. They ****ing bulldozed and clear cut down to a muddy ****ing mess. Shameful.

ok they are taking a little under 6 trees per acre the loggers are making $40.00 a tree.....do the math......most of the trees are dead or dying.....just a clean up cut.....nothing more nothing less.....

just a little fact.......i have 50 acres and had a sawyer give me a estimate to have selective cut and will pull around 70k to 90k depending on the market.....so they are just making wages on the yellowwood cut....

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...od-forest-and-150-k-offer-preserve/858921001/

 

[seedubs1]

It it has nothing to do with aesthetics. Again.....apparently you haven’t actually been to the sites where they “managed” MMSF. Butchered is the word I’d use.

If they did what you and the others on this thread THINK the DNR is doing, I’d have no problem with it. That is responsible forestry. What they are actually doing, however, is disgusting.

Neglect is still a form of management....... just a really poor one.



It takes an extremely shortsighted, selfish and frankly ignorant way of thinking to put your aesthetic preferences and convenience ahead of the actual health of the forest. Those mature forests that you mistakenly call old growth are wastelands largely devoid of wildlife and plant diversity.

 

[ghitch75]

Again.....apparently you haven’t hiked MMSF where they claimed this same thing. 6 trees an acre my ass. They ****ing bulldozed and clear cut down to a muddy ****ing mess. Shameful.

at yellowwood?????????...we are talking yellowwood here.....at MMSF show me the bids....and where in there was this done?......grew up hunting and fishing there....

 

[ghitch75]

Again.....apparently you haven’t hiked MMSF where they claimed this same thing. 6 trees an acre my ass. They ****ing bulldozed and clear cut down to a muddy ****ing mess. Shameful.

that was there landing......it is called logging.....give it a few years there will be plenty of wild critters there....

 

[seedubs1]

Hike straight back on the quad trail on Low Gap and keep going straight past where it would turn to drop down into the hollow. They eventually stopped the clear cutting after enough people pitched a fit about what they were doing back there.

The distrust they created there and in the plots that Tecumseh and Knobstone go through that were clear cut is what’s causing people to protest them doing anything in Yellowwood. If they did what they say, there wouldn’t be any issues. Responsibly harvesting would be fine with most people, obviously there’s the nutty people that don’t want anybody touching anything. But distrust based on recent mismanagement is what the issue currently is.

at yellowwood?????????...we are talking yellowwood here.....at MMSF show me the bids....and where in there was this done?......grew up hunting and fishing there....

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Neglect is still a form of management....... just a really poor one.

Actually, neglecting something is kindof the opposite of managing it.

It takes an extremely shortsighted, selfish and frankly ignorant way of thinking to put your aesthetic preferences and convenience ahead of the actual health of the forest.

So, cutting down a forest that had previously persisted for many thousands of years is to be considered as a magnanimous, enlightened, and totally altruistic endeavor?

Those mature forests that you mistakenly call old growth are wastelands largely devoid of wildlife and plant diversity.

Any Wildlife Biologist or Ecologist will recognize that, in some cases, some wildlife species flourish in "edge" habitats created when parcels of forest are cut (deer, turkey, American Robins). But there are other species that flourished in that same forest much better before any trees are cut. (Ivory Billed Woodpecker, Passenger Pigeon, White-lipped Snail). People log forests to get lumber and associated products, with the side benefit of creating habitat for game animals that we like to hunt (I killed two deer in HNF this season). I'll give you that forests can be selectively harvested and can be managed in a way that can provide a long-term benefit. But, if you say that there is no long-term benefit to keeping a small bit of old growth forest, if only just to look at, then I respectfully disagree with your philosophy of life.
Those old growth "wasteland" forests in the Amazon contain more species than North America, Europe, and Asia combined.

“I am glad I will not be young in a future without wilderness.”
― Aldo Leopold

 

[seedubs1]

That was was just the start. It was worse further in.

that was there landing......it is called logging.....give it a few years there will be plenty of wild critters there....

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

That was was just the start. It was worse further in.

My son and I decided last summer to hike some of the trails in southern Indiana. We started off doing the Two Lakes Loop, down by Tell City. It was a beautiful hike, until we got around to the big clear-cut area. It was really hot that day, mid-September, and it was not a very pleasant walk at all through that cleared area, but soon enough, we were back in the woods, continuing our hike. All in all, we had a good time, and it was a nice hike, even with the eye-sore clear cut. On our later hike, after the leaves fell, we had to change our plans and decided to do the Two Lakes Loop again. This time, on the side opposite the first clear cut, there were signs posted to watch for survey work, and we saw paint on the trees. With that, I doubt I'll plan to go back to that trail again.

 

[yetti462]

Again.....apparently you haven’t hiked MMSF where they claimed this same thing. 6 trees an acre my ass. They ****ing bulldozed and clear cut down to a muddy ****ing mess. Shameful.

WOW! An area where activity took place, a log yard!! Semi, a knuckleboom and skidders used the area to load logs. The cut off pile is evidence that the trees needed cut. Looking in the background it looks like a closed canopy forest.

bigboxajunk, these forests are not thousands of years old. It's all second or third growth. most likely cleared during the industrial revolution and grazed for years before being abandoned.

 

[two70]

It it has nothing to do with aesthetics. Again.....apparently you haven’t actually been to the sites where they “managed” MMSF. Butchered is the word I’d use.

If they did what you and the others on this thread THINK the DNR is doing, I’d have no problem with it. That is responsible forestry. What they are actually doing, however, is disgusting.

The only argument that I have seen you present against logging is based on aesthetics, even after having forestry behind the logging explained by several knowledgeable people, at least one which is an actual forester.

Frankly, the photo of the log yard above is a beautiful one to me. I grew up and lived most of my life surrounded by a little over a square mile of the HNF. In that time I've watched it go from a young growing forest teeming with wildlife to an overly mature one largely devoid of rabbits, grouse and deer. Drought and several windstorms have finally opened up enough of the canopy to let in light and allow the undergrowth to regenerate and some of the wildlife to begin returning in a few areas. Those windstorms, while ultimately beneficial, did a lot more damage than logging would have and all of that valuable timber went to waste.

 

[tenring]

Too bad there are no pictures of the Old CCC barracks being posted that was there during the Depression Era. Dozens of people lived and worked there making fire lanes and replanting of tens of thousands of trees, along with anything else that needed to be done. One whose only opinion is to leave it alone and let Mother Nature rule the roost should take the time to drive down there to the Office area and have a face to face conversation with someone who actually knows what they're talking about. And a good part of the money received by the State for the logged timber is payed back to the county where they were harvested as "payment in lieu of property taxes".

 

[bocefus78]

I've got the one of the state forester's cell number who marked that timber tract. I hired him to mark my property and supervise my harvest. The guy knows his stuff is all I will say. He would laugh himself to death at a lot of these comments.

With that, I'm out.

 

[two70]

Actually, neglecting something is kindof the opposite of managing it.




So, cutting down a forest that had previously persisted for many thousands of years is to be considered as a magnanimous, enlightened, and totally altruistic endeavor?



Any Wildlife Biologist or Ecologist will recognize that, in some cases, some wildlife species flourish in "edge" habitats created when parcels of forest are cut (deer, turkey, American Robins). But there are other species that flourished in that same forest much better before any trees are cut. (Ivory Billed Woodpecker, Passenger Pigeon, White-lipped Snail). People log forests to get lumber and associated products, with the side benefit of creating habitat for game animals that we like to hunt (I killed two deer in HNF this season). I'll give you that forests can be selectively harvested and can be managed in a way that can provide a long-term benefit. But, if you say that there is no long-term benefit to keeping a small bit of old growth forest, if only just to look at, then I respectfully disagree with your philosophy of life.
Those old growth "wasteland" forests in the Amazon contain more species than North America, Europe, and Asia combined.

“I am glad I will not be young in a future without wilderness.”
― Aldo Leopold

Neglect has consequences as does any other management decision, only neglect provides the illusion of doing no harm while actually doing much. I'm not sure where people get the notion that nature is a well oiled machine operating in benevolence but such notions are not founded in reality.

There are no thousand year old forests in Indiana. In fact there are actually far more forested acres in the state now than there was in the late 1800s. Virtually the entire state has been logged multiple times since Indiana was first designated as a territory. There are a few forests that date to the pioneer days but those are located on state parks and other properties which are not logged.

Most of the old growth species preferring species were lost long ago when that forest was first cleared. Even those species benefited from regular disturbance of the the unbroken canopy caused by fire which we now suppress. Still as has been pointed out several times in the last few pages, we are not talking about cutting all the forests as there are tens of thousands of acres of forest in State Parks, the HNF, and State Nature Preserves that will never be logged again. Instead we are talking about an extremely limited cutting in a state forest that is designated for timber management.

Aldo Leopold should have stopped with the nature sketches in part one of the Sand County Almanac instead of delving into the overly sentimental and frequently flawed treatise at the end. While being somewhat beneficial in his day, the protectionist movement that it helped fuel has been extremely damaging.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I'm not sure where people get the notion that nature is a well oiled machine operating in benevolence but such notions are not founded in reality.

I would never say that nature operates with any sense of benevolence (nor any sense of anything to do with purpose), but I would take exception to the notion that nature isn't beautiful and wonderful. Whatever "management" is undertaken by men in any forest, it's still nature that grows the trees.

If it were possible to have pictures of what the original forests of Indiana looked like when the first Europeans saw them, I can only guess that whatever those forests look like now pale in comparison. Although, if that would be true and if those original forests were magnificent, then maybe that only puts more fuel to the theory that Europeans arrived in America much earlier than we thought, since there's no way all those forests could have become so grand without human intervention.

Aldo Leopold should have stopped with the nature sketches in part one of the Sand County Almanac instead of delving into the overly sentimental and frequently flawed treatise at the end. While being somewhat beneficial in his day, the protectionist movement that it helped fuel has been extremely damaging.

I've read that book a dozen times, it's one of my favorite re-reads, and never has the word "damaging" come to mind when I'm done.

 

[MindfulMan]

I would never say that nature operates with any sense of benevolence (nor any sense of anything to do with purpose), but I would take exception to the notion that nature isn't beautiful and wonderful. Whatever "management" is undertaken by men in any forest, it's still nature that grows the trees.

If it were possible to have pictures of what the original forests of Indiana looked like when the first Europeans saw them, I can only guess that whatever those forests look like now pale in comparison. Although, if that would be true and if those original forests were magnificent, then maybe that only puts more fuel to the theory that Europeans arrived in America much earlier than we thought, since there's no way all those forests could have become so grand without human intervention.




I've read that book a dozen times, it's one of my favorite re-reads, and never has the word "damaging" come to mind when I'm done.

I wish that I was a more senior member of this forum, and could give you 'reputation' ..... for you truly deserve it, BigBoxaJunk.
Hopefully, you're familiar with the nature poetry of Mary Oliver. If not, I highly recommend her books.

As far as several admonishing me for using the term "old growth" forest, I offer this: I'm 66 years old, and any trees that are older than me ...... I consider to be old growth.
My definition isn't scientific, and I don't care, and don't apologize for it.

Isn't it strange that all of the participants in this thread who are instructing us in the benefits of forest management, seem to be guys who make their income from such practices.
Peculiar, huh ?

 

[Hawkeye]

I wish that I was a more senior member of this forum, and could give you 'reputation' ..... for you truly deserve it, BigBoxaJunk.
Hopefully, you're familiar with the nature poetry of Mary Oliver. If not, I highly recommend her books.

As far as several admonishing me for using the term "old growth" forest, I offer this: I'm 66 years old, and any trees that are older than me ...... I consider to be old growth.
My definition isn't scientific, and I don't care, and don't apologize for it.

Isn't it strange that all of the participants in this thread who are instructing us in the benefits of forest management, seem to be guys who make their income from such practices.
Peculiar, huh ?

Regarding "old growth", words have meanings regardless of how we may wan to use them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old-growth_forest

Thought I'd add the link for those that want to learn about the term and what it is generally construed to mean.

 

[yetti462]

To all haters of harvesting, next time you sit down to dinner, look at the beautiful table, when you grab a cup out of your cabinet, look at the beautiful wood grain. Take pride in the looks of your hardwood flooring. Enjoy the soft feel of toilet paper. What I'm pointing out is we all use forest products. It was mentioned that the guys for this management are affiliated with making income from said practices. That indeed is true on my behalf. From the time of selling firewood to working in the logging industry to running a forestry consulting business.
The hardwood industry is very important to the economy of Indiana. Here are some stats, these rank first in the nation, wood office furniture, wood stock kitchen cabinets, wood caskets & hardwood plywood type products. This industry does more for Indiana than the drum beaters do.
Another point I want to make is that most of the consulting foresters plant trees. I can with utmost confidence state that I have planted more trees than I have ever cut or marked for sale. If the drum beaters spent their time planting instead of protesting, think of the difference they could make.

 

[ghitch75]

yes i clear cut a acre to build my house and here are some hickory cabinets and trim made from the trees.....