Indiana setting local homicide records year-after-year.

[T.Lex]

If that's the case (no similar prior encounters with the law), then I do see your point. I wasn't aware of their background, but was going by what is most often the case (suspected robbers having had similar charges in the past). Living in Marion County with our revolving door justice system, I'm asking for lenience.

hahaha

No shade from me.

Look, I suspect that the officers were pretty much convinced these were the bad guys. Sounds like these robberies stopped when these people were arrested. At a common sense level, I'll concede there's a "probability" that these were the offenders.

But, for some REALLY good reasons IMHO, that's not enough. These are probably a group of the 9/10 guilty that go free so we can be confident that the innocent are not convicted. At least not very often.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I get chills every time KF and I agree.

We need to make cops watch "Heat" at least the scene where the bad guys are breaking into the precious metals depository and Vincent calls off SIS/SWAT dogs as it would have "been busted back to a misdemeanor". They could learn about timing during a fight and its importance.

Also, we need to make BBI watch "Point Break" so he will understand that you can only truly qualify with your pistol in the rain without ear or eye protection.

AND he will understand what I mean when I say "100 percent, Utah!"

 

[T.Lex]

Heat - absolutely. That's an excellent film.

Point Break.... well... uh... if you say so, cap'n.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Now, in this case, the "body language" problem is that there's nothing illegal or unlawful about having suspicious body language.

There's nothing illegal about weaving in your lane, either, as long as you stay inside it. There's nothing illegal about about driving 10 mph under the speed limit (in most cases). There's nothing illegal about sitting at a green light for a few extra seconds. Combine them all, and it's reasonable to suspect impaired driving.

I have an easier fix. Just follow the car until it commits a traffic infraction.

Sure, that avoids the suppression hearing and that's what I would recommend in the game we currently play. Same as I got warrants on things I didn't need to get warrants on. Pretextual stop for an infraction so you can actually investigate the felony. That's a game designed by the current case law. Anyone with a grain of common sense would recognize the reasonable suspicion was already present and the pretextual stop just some BS required by the game.

1) The car would stop, and the people would either get out or not. IMPD pulls up next to/behind (without blocking the car in) and officer asks, "How are you folks doing tonight? Mind if I ask you a couple questions?" The reality is that at least a couple of them would run after exiting the car, which changes this significantly, IMHO. If they don't run and answer questions, I think the IMPD officer could confirm that they match the description pretty quickly and they would have REALLY bad answers to the easy questions.

Think of the tactics of that. "Try to get suspected armed robbers to flee from you." I am normally not this blunt as you know, but that's incredibly stupid. That leads to a greatly increased risk of being hurt or killed to everyone on both sides and the community at large.

 

[T.Lex]

Think of the tactics of that. "Try to get suspected armed robbers to flee from you." I am normally not this blunt as you know, but that's incredibly stupid. That leads to a greatly increased risk of being hurt or killed to everyone on both sides and the community at large.

Ok, so when they stop, a different choice is made. I wasn't advocating for those tactics, just saying what might happen the car stopped in the absence of a traffic stop.

There's nothing wrong with a parade of IMPD Caprices (or Leafs, or whatever) lining up behind them so when they stop, there's a whole bunch of voluntary interaction happening.

The main point is that we know (for now) that the stop was the problem. I suspect that someone inside IMPD might've been able to predict it would be a problem, if it went down as described. (It is an altogether different issue if the prosecutor in the trial court dropped the ball on more truthyness that might've helped PC.)

The choice that was made in this specific case - to stop the car based on shaky PC - did not (appear) to be necessary.

Again, as with most Court of Appeals opinions, this is with the benefit of the retrospectrometer thingy.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

There's nothing wrong with a parade of IMPD Caprices (or Leafs, or whatever) lining up behind them so when they stop, there's a whole bunch of voluntary interaction happening.

Then you just get a different suppression hearing. "Did not feel free to leave" "coercive" etc.

 

[T.Lex]

Then you just get a different suppression hearing. "Did not feel free to leave" "coercive" etc.

Indeed. An arguably easier one that what actually happened.

I still think that, if they managed to not get pulled over for a traffic violation, they'd probably run when it stopped.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

September was a very deadly month in Indianapolis

Think they said 120 on the radio this morning

 

[churchmouse]

September was a very deadly month in Indianapolis

Think they said 120 on the radio this morning

It would be a very enlightening discussion if we could discuss who is doing the killing and who is being killed for the most part.
But that would not go well in here for obvious reasons.

 

[VUPDblue]

It's the thug culture and they're killing each other. It's the same **** over and over, and the same people over and over. The suspects and victims are usually both fatherless, young, unemployed, uneducated, black males. The killings generally stem from drug sale disagreements, robberies, or perceived wrongs. The disagreements and perceived wrongs are pride and testosterone fueled beefs that the players lack the life skills and education to settle rationally and calmly, or simply walk away from altogether.

 

[churchmouse]

It's the thug culture and they're killing each other. It's the same **** over and over, and the same people over and over. The suspects and victims are usually both fatherless, young, unemployed, uneducated, black males. The killings generally stem from drug sale disagreements, robberies, or perceived wrongs. The disagreements and perceived wrongs are pride and testosterone fueled beefs that the players lack the life skills and education to settle rationally and calmly, or simply walk away from altogether.

When you have nothing to loose this is the end result.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

When you have nothing to loose this is the end result.

No. There's a lot of poor, uneducated, unemployed folks from broken homes who aren't out shooting at each other. It's a culture issue. Dope gangs have a culture, but so do the "you can't punk me" / "I can't resolve conflict without violence" losers.

Some dummy under arrest tried to convince me to take him out of handcuffs and fight him "one on one" with the argument my kids wouldn't respect me if I didn't. Think about that world view. Add in guns, smoking spice, and an argument over who's turn it is to use the good X-box controller, and you've got Murder.

 

[VUPDblue]

Side note, some drunk dip**** down at Esk was running his suck to me the other night for no reason and busted out the "take me out of these cuffs" line and stood up off the bench. I stood, took out my key and said "turn around, this is just my game". His retort was "eff you, my ride's here.....pig" and sat back down. All the lolz

 

[Kutnupe14]

No. There's a lot of poor, uneducated, unemployed folks from broken homes who aren't out shooting at each other. It's a culture issue. Dope gangs have a culture, but so do the "you can't punk me" / "I can't resolve conflict without violence" losers.

Some dummy under arrest tried to convince me to take him out of handcuffs and fight him "one on one" with the argument my kids wouldn't respect me if I didn't. Think about that world view. Add in guns, smoking spice, and an argument over who's turn it is to use the good X-box controller, and you've got Murder.

...and if I may add, never take home a stripper. I'm betting we break the record this year.

 

[ghuns]

It's the thug culture and they're killing each other. It's the same **** over and over, and the same people over and over. The suspects and victims are usually both fatherless, young, unemployed, uneducated, black males. The killings generally stem from drug sale disagreements, robberies, or perceived wrongs. The disagreements and perceived wrongs are pride and testosterone fueled beefs that the players lack the life skills and education to settle rationally and calmly, or simply walk away from altogether.

Yeah. That's what the mayor said. Totally random. No pattern to be found.

 

[churchmouse]

No. There's a lot of poor, uneducated, unemployed folks from broken homes who aren't out shooting at each other. It's a culture issue. Dope gangs have a culture, but so do the "you can't punk me" / "I can't resolve conflict without violence" losers.

Some dummy under arrest tried to convince me to take him out of handcuffs and fight him "one on one" with the argument my kids wouldn't respect me if I didn't. Think about that world view. Add in guns, smoking spice, and an argument over who's turn it is to use the good X-box controller, and you've got Murder.

That was my point. I totally gt the culture angle. See it every day. I was being nice. For a change.

 

[churchmouse]

...and if I may add, never take home a stripper. I'm betting we break the record this year.

I had something really cool to say here but....well......NO

 

[Leadeye]

I heard the mayor had created a new staff position to help deal with this.

 

[Sigblitz]

No. Well. IMHO, no.

They were in the car, right? Driving around?

First, let me say this is my own personal view as someone who's spent some time in this area of the law (but not recently). I'd defer to a couple other INGOers for their perspective. But since you asked....

Second, since it sounds like they were driving around 1 of 2 things was inevitable:
1) The car would stop, and the people would either get out or not. IMPD pulls up next to/behind (without blocking the car in) and officer asks, "How are you folks doing tonight? Mind if I ask you a couple questions?" The reality is that at least a couple of them would run after exiting the car, which changes this significantly, IMHO. If they don't run and answer questions, I think the IMPD officer could confirm that they match the description pretty quickly and they would have REALLY bad answers to the easy questions.

2) The driver of the car would commit an infraction/traffic violation and there'd be a reason to stop it. Pretty much fair game after that.

From what I can tell, the problem was the stop of the car. If there'd been a reason for that -almost ANY reason - then a different result (maybe).

Total MMQBing, with an eye toward informing the public at large and maybe helping the officers that read this act in a way that avoids suppression of important evidence.

But, again, these officers appear to have stopped a robbery spree that night, which is a small victory in and of itself.

I read the judiciary opinion on this one example. I agree with you the traffic stop was the problem.

I want to comment about the guns on the streets. There's people buying and selling for profit on Armslist. I would bet some have sold enough to need an FFL. Some guns are overpriced and no LTC needed. People should be responsible selling and ask for a LTC but it's not going to happen. Guns are easy to get for persons who can't own them or want to commit a crime. They've changed hands a couple of times and can't even be traced to the current owner. Also I've noticed a lot of guns are stolen right out of a car or off a dresser in a little gun safe. People just need to be responsible storing or selling their weapon. If you buy one on Armslist to flip it, there's no repercussions if it's carried or used illegally. Any illegal gun taken off the streets is a win. Any legal traffic stop that can locate illegal guns with a consent to search is a win. Any sale denied because no LTC is a win. Don't have one? Buy your gun at a gun store and go through the background check. Any gun not sitting on your dresser or in your car when you're not there is a win. Can't take your gun into Xmart? Cable lock it through the action to the trunk lid if nothing else. It has to start with responsible gun ownership. The guns on the street didn't drop from the sky. I'll get flack from both sides but there's some truth and common sense here. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Sigblitz]

I'm for the 2nd amendment. I'm just against murders, kids getting guns illegally, selling guns to a known felon. Don't have the answers. Just a discussion. And it's not my intention to imply legal gun owners are irresponsible. I see how I could have stuck my foot in that one. I just want people to be vigilant about what can we do personally so the gun we have doesn't end up at a crime scene. I'm not talking about gun rights. I own a gun and I'm very careful with storing it, how I can use it, etc. Gun ownership comes with a lot of responsibility. I would just like to keep illegal guns off the streets out of the hands felons and criminals using them in a crime. Nothing political at all. I would just like to see the robberies and murders stop. I don't have any answers but willing to discuss it or do my little part.