Instructors limiting gear/equipment choices??

[churchmouse]

What about post #7?

I was post #6...did not realize there was more until my last post that you quoted.

 

[GNRPowdeR]

This doesn't surprise me. Can't say I disagree with Mr Vickers opinion on XS sights, but I wouldn't hammer them out of a students gun unless they agreed to it. Of course there are reasons I have been to dozens of classes but not one by LAV.

Restraining order?

Not this time.

This... At least he quantified his statement.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

When I teach a defensive pistol class I insist that clients use a 9mm or large caliber. I have come to the conclusion that is the best practice. Anyone is free to carry whatever they want, but training would have to be done someplace else. If I allow those small calibers in my class I am condoning them as acceptable, and I do not believe that they are. I got some hate email from one man and a follow up angry phone call about it one time. Because his wife should be allowed to take my class with her Glock 42. The 9mm requirement was clear up front.

So did she attend with a different gun?

 

[2A_Tom]

A properly holstered handgun isn't "pointed" at anything. It is securely encased. I'm awful glad the folks I run with understand holsters and how they work.

On the OP, doesn't Vickers sell his own branded sights?

I would assume the concern is that you will be drawing your weapon while prone. We all know that no one has ever had an ND while drawing.

I am not afraid of a holstered pistol.

 

[Birds Away]

For many years I have read everything I could on INGO from the instructors who post here regularly. After years of carrying on a daily basis I have reached the conclusion that I don't have the requisite skills to do so. So, I no longer carry. I have some physical limitations and I am very limited on where I can practice. It is very rare that I can get an opportunity to move and shoot as one example. I am also financially limited and can't pay for regular instruction. I will say that I have received pro bono instruction from some folks who would normally be paid for said service. There was nothing positive about those experiences. No positive messages were conveyed to me and most of what I said was ignored. So, with all that in mind and having read on a near daily basis that without such instruction I am incapable of adequately defending myself I have ceased to carry. None of my guns have left the safe except for range trips. Now I depend on the benevolence of my fellow man. Wish me luck.

 

[jkdbjj]

For many years I have read everything I could on INGO from the instructors who post here regularly. After years of carrying on a daily basis I have reached the conclusion that I don't have the requisite skills to do so. So, I no longer carry. I have some physical limitations and I am very limited on where I can practice. It is very rare that I can get an opportunity to move and shoot as one example. I am also financially limited and can't pay for regular instruction. I will say that I have received pro bono instruction from some folks who would normally be paid for said service. There was nothing positive about those experiences. No positive messages were conveyed to me and most of what I said was ignored. So, with all that in mind and having read on a near daily basis that without such instruction I am incapable of adequately defending myself I have ceased to carry. None of my guns have left the safe except for range trips. Now I depend on the benevolence of my fellow man. Wish me luck.

I don't know your limitations and I don't know what "instructors" you had...but the idea that only people who have had formal training from a person who calls himself/herself an "instructor" can be safe and proficient with a firearm is not consistent with my life experiences. Knowing how to safely load, fire, unload, a weapon is obviously critical. If you don't know how to do that, then finding someone to explain it or show you how to do it is also critical.

 

[2A_Tom]

Back on subject. I am limited in the amount of money I can invest in formal training I do shoot at least 2 times a month at Point Blank and try for more.

I was trained in the army and am a good shot. I have read extensively through the years Here and many other sources. I have good situational awareness and mindset is a constant meditation.

I took Defensive Handgun 1 last year with Coach and BBI. As BBI stated It is not primarily a shooting proficiency course. The curriculum is mostly SA, Mindset and Problem Solving with shooting situations. It is an outstanding course that I recommend to everyone.

This post is to say that even though it is not a basic shooting course, Coach pointed out at different times two things that I could do better. I have been aware of them and been trying to improve and Saturday I will be pleased if he can make me aware of any other improvements I can make.

 

[Coach]

So did she attend with a different gun?

No. She did not. Which is her choice and I can respect that.

 

[Coach]

For many years I have read everything I could on INGO from the instructors who post here regularly. After years of carrying on a daily basis I have reached the conclusion that I don't have the requisite skills to do so. So, I no longer carry. I have some physical limitations and I am very limited on where I can practice. It is very rare that I can get an opportunity to move and shoot as one example. I am also financially limited and can't pay for regular instruction. I will say that I have received pro bono instruction from some folks who would normally be paid for said service. There was nothing positive about those experiences. No positive messages were conveyed to me and most of what I said was ignored. So, with all that in mind and having read on a near daily basis that without such instruction I am incapable of adequately defending myself I have ceased to carry. None of my guns have left the safe except for range trips. Now I depend on the benevolence of my fellow man. Wish me luck.

Two questions: Was this meant as sarcasm?

If it was not meant that way. What are the limitations that you reference? Why are you not capable? I totally understand if you don't want to put it out here. I would like to know in the event that there is something that I can help you with. If you have a mind pm, email or give me a call. 765-301-0075.

 

[churchmouse]

I don't know your limitations and I don't know what "instructors" you had...but the idea that only people who have had formal training from a person who calls himself/herself an "instructor" can be safe and proficient with a firearm is not consistent with my life experiences. Knowing how to safely load, fire, unload, a weapon is obviously critical. If you don't know how to do that, then finding someone to explain it or show you how to do it is also critical.

Having spent a lot of time on the line with BA I deem him competent. More so than most I know.

I think there can be some misunderstanding in what we are trying to say in this thread.

 

[Birds Away]

Two questions: Was this meant as sarcasm?

If it was not meant that way. What are the limitations that you reference? Why are you not capable? I totally understand if you don't want to put it out here. I would like to know in the event that there is something that I can help you with. If you have a mind pm, email or give me a call. 765-301-0075.

No sarcasm intended. I like to think of myself as a responsible individual. I think carrying a firearm is not a light decision to make and it's important that each person is honest with themselves. You can't give yourself a pass on this one.

Thank you but I am not currently in a position to take advantage of your kind offer.

 

[Coach]

No sarcasm intended. I like to think of myself as a responsible individual. I think carrying a firearm is not a light decision to make and it's important that each person is honest with themselves. You can't give yourself a pass on this one.

Thank you but I am not currently in a position to take advantage of your kind offer.

I admire your responsibility and maturity. When you are in a better position give me a call. I would like to try and help.

 

[Coach]

I assume this is the type of thing that folks have a problem with from an instructor.

[video=youtube;wucGuLhF6X0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wucGuLhF6X0[/video]

 

[GIJEW]

For many years I have read everything I could on INGO from the instructors who post here regularly. After years of carrying on a daily basis I have reached the conclusion that I don't have the requisite skills to do so. So, I no longer carry. I have some physical limitations and I am very limited on where I can practice. It is very rare that I can get an opportunity to move and shoot as one example. I am also financially limited and can't pay for regular instruction. I will say that I have received pro bono instruction from some folks who would normally be paid for said service. There was nothing positive about those experiences. No positive messages were conveyed to me and most of what I said was ignored. So, with all that in mind and having read on a near daily basis that without such instruction I am incapable of adequately defending myself I have ceased to carry. None of my guns have left the safe except for range trips. Now I depend on the benevolence of my fellow man. Wish me luck.

I hope you take what I say here, not as argument or criticism but as words of encouragement. I became disabled several years ago and with a lot of PT have managed to fight my way out of a wheel chair to hobbling around on a cane. In any case, I got the rug pulled out from under my abilities--shooting and otherwise (hell, it's even hard to sh*t).

1) since you're competent (CM says so anyway) with actually shooting, I'd question whether you're safer being unarmed. Being unarmed and disabled is doubly defenseless. Per Rabbi Hillel: "If I am not for myself, who will be?"
2) having said that, I wouldn't let ANYONE tell me I can't and therefore should'nt provide for my defense. NOt the politi-chief; not shannon watts; Not any instructor regardless of their creds. They won't be there to help you and have just enough moral authority to STFU
3) IMO any instructor who ignores what you have to say about your physical limitations is an inferior instructor. Look around and find someone with the commitment to help YOU. IMO that's a pre-req for instructing.
4)I hear you about the cost of regular training. While training, aside from learning new things, can be a good test of skill retention, the main thing--as you know--is practicing and maintaining the skills you have, even if it's just dry-practice. Some is way better than none.

What you choose to do is of course your decision (what do I know beyond what you wrote?) but I urge you not to give up on yourself and to hang in there!

 

[MCgrease08]

On a serious note, as long as they are safe with it people can use whatever they want in my class. I prefer they carry what and how they do the majority of the time. My class is not a fundamentals class and isn't geared toward improving your underlying technical skill, although you may get some coaching in that regard.

I'm pretty sure I did run Big Dots when I took your class.

Like others, I don't have them anymore either.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

No. She did not. Which is her choice and I can respect that.

It would seem a missed opportunity, then. If she attended, she'd at least be better with what she had. You'd also have the chance to lay out the cons of sub-duty calibers. I don't see allowing given equipment as an endorsement.

I hope you take what I say here, not as argument or criticism but as words of encouragement. I became disabled several years ago and with a lot of PT have managed to fight my way out of a wheel chair to hobbling around on a cane. In any case, I got the rug pulled out from under my abilities--shooting and otherwise (hell, it's even hard to sh*t).

I'd also like to add that GIJEW attended DC1 on his cane and we simply incorporated his cane into his scenarios. He was able to fully participate.

I am quite willing to adapt any program to anyone's abilities. I fully understand, though, that some disabilities are simply too severe to work around. BirdsAway, if you'd like to PM me to discuss it, feel free. Even if your pure technical ability has degraded, that doesn't mean you can't safely carry or be effective. Also keep in mind just because you are armed doesn't mean you *have* to act. I also fully understand that some issues can simply make you unsafe, vision issues making it impossible to verify targets, etc. I don't think there's a work around for that.

 

[Coach]

Allowing given equipment into a defensive pistol class means that you are agreeing it is good enough for the class and if it is good enough for the class it is good enough for defensive purposes. Since that is what the class is designed to address.

That is the way I see it. I would think it is a reasonable and logical interpretation.

 

[Birds Away]

I explained myself poorly as usual. Although I made the decision many months ago a recent thread I read on here led me to post. The incident where the lady shot the guy grappling with the conservation officer reaffirmed my decision in my mind. Although I applaud her for coming to the Officer's aid and am very glad it turned out the way it did I have great reservations when thinking of myself, or many others, in that situation. Shooting a bad guy who is in close physical proximity with a good guy is a daunting proposition. I wasn't there and don't know the exact situation but I know I would be extremely reluctant to make that shot. What if things turned out differently? What if, despite her best intentions, the wrong person was shot? Would she still be getting the support she is receiving today? Am I confident enough in my skill set to make that shot? There is nothing I would like better than to come to the aid of an Officer in need. But I'm not sure I could have taken that shot.

 

[jlw]

In some of my classes, I require a pistol with a minimum six shot capacity. It's a class management decision; not an agreement or disagreement on the viability of the 5-shot j-frame as a defensive pistol. In those classes we run a lot of 3-shot drills, and a person with a 5-shot frame would have to reload after every evolution. That really grinds the class to a halt.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Allowing given equipment into a defensive pistol class means that you are agreeing it is good enough for the class and if it is good enough for the class it is good enough for defensive purposes. Since that is what the class is designed to address.

That is the way I see it. I would think it is a reasonable and logical interpretation.

Who has better outcomes, trained people with a .380 or untrained with a 9mm? Would you allow a Hi-point .40?

Is the point to "win" the class? Or to better prepare for survival? Did your policy accomplish that for the woman who was otherwise willing to train?