I've been converted, BS, no I havn't

[AmmoManAaron]

Over the last few years, I've been convinced that while I am very sympathetic to libertarian ideals, the Libertarian party is a joke and Libertarians are so argumentative and self-sabotaging that they will never be able to convince the majority of the nation that their ideals are worth following. Too bad. I was a prime candidate for such a conversion.

^^^Same here^^^

Plus their candidates don't even live up to even the most basic of Libertarian ideals such as defense of the 2A.

2A is always the litmus test for me, voting Trump.

^^^Same here^^^

With the Supreme Court on the line, I'm firmly in the Trump camp. The list of 21 people that Trump states he will be choosing from give me confidence that my vote will protect the 2A.

 

[Thor]

No, nothing's changed my mind, still can't support any of these people. But, bacon!

 

[Thor]

And this will be the result regardless of our discussions, desires, opinions on the power structure of this nation. It has been rolling this way for years and we have done literally nothing to stop/alter it. Nothing.

I don't think we're allowed to discuss that on this site...

 

[2A_Tom]

Enough people waiting for a viable alternative prevent the possibility of ever making an alternative viable.

Circular illogic.

 

[2A_Tom]

Over the last few years, I've been convinced that while I am very sympathetic to libertarian ideals, the Libertarian party is a joke and Libertarians are so argumentative and self-sabotaging that they will never be able to convince the majority of the nation that their ideals are worth following. Too bad. I was a prime candidate for such a conversion.

I would describe myself as having libertarian ideals also... I do agree with you about the fact they do seem to be self-sabotaging. I don't see them being successful gaining any ground establishing themselves if they continue as such. There seems to be many different thoughts and extremes within the "party" just as there are in the dem and republican parties. I feel like it's just the root problem that it's still politics most of the time.

Me too. And you hit exacly the reasons they've turned me off.

They don't even have the convictions of their beliefs to actually nominate real libertarians anyway. Why should I discontinue supporting one party that says one thing and nominates and supports folks that does another to jump over to another that does exactly the same thing?

Write in Al Bundy. He has a record of fighting taxes and has owned a gun in Chicago --- CHICAGO!!!

I was here as well but some of what the believe is just to far off the base line for me.

Add to this the stead fast self sabotage aspect and I have to say no for the reasons you list.

Sadly the 2 party's that are running the big show suck butt's. Until there is a viable alternative we are screwed

^^^Same here^^^

Plus their candidates don't even live up to even the most basic of Libertarian ideals such as defense of the 2A.



^^^Same here^^^

Pudly wins this discussion. I agree.

 

[printcraft]

"THERE'S NO TIME FOR A THIRD PARTY... MAYBE ONE DAY... BUT THIS ELECTION IS TOO IMPORTANT. BEND THE KNEE!"

Now repeat that every 4 years for the rest of time.

The IDEA of Trump is closer to a third party being elected president than any other time in recent history.
He is "thought of" as a repudiation of the demoncrat and republican elite machine status quo.
His presidency could be the catalyst to keep that mindset in play. NO to the career politicians.

 

[2A_Tom]

 

[jamil]

"THERE'S NO TIME FOR A THIRD PARTY... MAYBE ONE DAY... BUT THIS ELECTION IS TOO IMPORTANT. BEND THE KNEE!"

Now repeat that every 4 years for the rest of time.

You know what I hear most? When I confront Johnson supporters about his SJW nonsense, they deny that he would ever actually impose those ideas. When I confront 2A supporting democrats, they say Hillary won't be able to get any of her anti-gun legislation through congress.

When I confront Trumpers about "Trump"? Well. You know.

Point is, "but THIS election is too important" will always happen whenever the least worst candidate and the worst candidate are the two primary choices. For a lot of people that happens every election. People will tend to ignore other parties' candidates because they're are too afraid the worst candidate would win.

The only way to fix that is to make it so that there is no strategic advantage to vote for a lesser liked candidate just so the worst candidate won't win. The two party system must go away. First-past-the-post voting must go away. Winner-takes-all EC must go away.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

You know what I hear most? When I confront Johnson supporters about his SJW nonsense, they deny that he would ever actually impose those ideas. When I confront 2A supporting democrats, they say Hillary won't be able to get any of her anti-gun legislation through congress.

When I confront Trumpers about "Trump"? Well. You know.

Point is, "but THIS election is too important" will always happen whenever the least worst candidate and the worst candidate are the two primary choices. For a lot of people that happens every election. People will tend to ignore other parties' candidates because they're are too afraid the worst candidate would win.

The only way to fix that is to make it so that there is no strategic advantage to vote for a lesser liked candidate just so the worst candidate won't win. The two party system must go away. First-past-the-post voting must go away. Winner-takes-all EC must go away.

And maybe people could stop acting so apocalyptic about elections. Obama was supposed to destroy America and be the end of us all. Well, we're still here... and we'll still be here, with our guns, after Hillary gets out of office... which she will promptly do, without suspending elections, or sending the UN door-to-door, or (insert more fearmongering here).

2016 is ****ty, but it's not the end.

 

[Brad69]

So you believe that after 8 years of BHO that another years of HRC we will still be ok?
BTW I have applied to be a "Safe and Secure" storage inspector.

 

[bwframe]

I'm voting for the Second Amendment ...




...and never forgetting those who didn't.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

So you believe that after 8 years of BHO that another years of HRC we will still be ok?
BTW I have applied to be a "Safe and Secure" storage inspector.

Probably. She's an awful person, and she's going to get what she thinks is owed to her... and she's a liar, and corrupt, and should never be in power of anything... but she also just wants more for herself. Try to set up a dynasty for the kids or something, I don't know what her goals here are.

Fiscally, she's probably on the Republican side of things. The reason I'm not that worried is gun ownership is getting higher and higher. I expect it to continue to grow under Clinton.

Guns are one of those things you have to slowly get control of. Clinton isn't going to live long enough to take them away. She'll try to do more of the small stuff that Obama failed to do... but that can all be reversed when she's gone.

America will stick around. Wall St/Corps will do great (she benefits). We'll all be called sexist for 8 years and then we move on. Meh.

After seeing what little Obama did after hearing how cataclysmic his Presidency would be for the country... I see that people just say **** for votes and party support, or because they're just bored.

Yeah we're heading in the wrong direction, but we're not there yet and it'll take more than Clinton to get us to the point of no return.

She's going to go in with a LOT of people angry at her for "stealing" Bernie's nomination. I don't think this is going to be smooth for her.

People that turn this into a black-and-white "vote for/against 2A" are childish and simple-minded when it comes to politics. They try to guilt you into thinking like them using fear and threats. Guns aren't going anywhere. Pretty sure they said Obama was supposed to take my guns away, too... and now I have more than ever.

I'd probably prefer a Johnson or Trump over her... but it just isn't going to happen. The GOP picked and backed the biggest loser, and they're going to lose because of it.

 

[2A_Tom]

Probably.

So, you don't believe that a shift in the supreme court will be a problem?

 

[Brad69]

GPIA7R,
Good comments I hope you are right.
I am gonna be on the winning side whoever wins.
You see some animals are more equal than others!
I am also guiding trips on the Ohio river. For a small sum of $101.00 I will testify that you lost all of your fireams in the river on the trip.

 

[jamil]

And maybe people could stop acting so apocalyptic about elections. Obama was supposed to destroy America and be the end of us all. Well, we're still here... and we'll still be here, with our guns, after Hillary gets out of office... which she will promptly do, without suspending elections, or sending the UN door-to-door, or (insert more fearmongering here).

2016 is ****ty, but it's not the end.

I don't think anyone prone to acting apocalyptic will ever be less prone. The one's who aren't prone don't act apocalyptic now. Typically the fringes always act apocalyptic. So, if you tend to act apocalyptic, you might be on the fringe.

So you believe that after 8 years of BHO that another years of HRC we will still be ok?
BTW I have applied to be a "Safe and Secure" storage inspector.

No. I think we will be even less okay than we are now on the other side of a Hillary presidency.

And I think we will be even less okay than we are now on the other side of a Trump presidency.

Either way, even less okay. The only difference is which side of the cliff.

 

[Brad69]

What could go wrong with Trump administration?

 

[jamil]

What could go wrong with Trump administration?

Are you serious?

 

[Brad69]

I think if we took his phone away all would be good!

 

[jamil]

I think if we took his phone away all would be good!

For awhile there I thought they changed his twitter password. But then...

 

[Maximinus Thrax]

So, you don't believe that a shift in the supreme court will be a problem?

Therein lies the crux of the problem for me...I can vote my values or I can vote for the Supreme Court. If Hillary wins, she may not get any of her policies through and she may not get any headway on the anti 2A front but her activist Supreme Court nominee(s) will be there long after she is gone.