Kroger stabbing: Employee killed during shift at Waynedale Kroger in Indiana

[tomcat13]

Don't they still sell Good Ol Lodge Cast Iron Skillets @ Kroger?
Thinkin about a 12-incher to the Cranium would have worked.
Admittedly Don't Know How I would react in a similar situation.
Like to think I'd take action & hope I never witness something like this.
Prayers for the Victim's Family-especially during this Holiday Season.

 

[cbhausen]

Most people here have watched enough security, cam videos of assaults, to see how fast they can happen. That lodge frying pan might be in the next aisle over, which is too far. Whatever you’re going to be using to defend yourself, your loved ones, or others needs to be on your person, whether that’s hands and feet or a firearm.

 

[Gabriel]

Nobody had a gun in the Fort to stop this guy?

This stuff happens so fast that by the time it starts, it's pretty much over.

 

[Amishman44]

I’ve seen stabbings where it looked like simple rapid punching. So it could have been a case of someone armed didn’t know what they were seeing. And unless the victim had a plain white Tee shirt this time of year I doubt there would be blood before it was over and the perp fled.

To many uncertain facts to say “well if I was there” because most folks outside someone that has been around violence that carries have zero realization of what they are seeing. It’s not always like the movies. And reading a report of “victim shot or stabbed” we have the luxury of knowing after the fact and not assessing WTF and I looking at and plan accordingly.

Just my thoughts!

Yes...there's always that cognitive delay in seeing something happen and formulating an appropriate response, due to the time it takes to see the incident, to comprehend (aka, recognize) the incident, to assess the incident (aka, the situation itself, and the good / bad/ ugly / etc.), and make a decision to respond and in an appropriate manner, that is not always simply instantaneous. Plus, in an acute situation, people can easily become discombobulated for a short bit, before the comprehension sets in, registers, and a response can be initiated.
A perfect example, when Kennedy got shot at Daly Plaza in Dallas, the bystanders (aka, the witnesses) did not all immediately drop to the ground or seek shelter in their immediate response to the shots fired, many of them turned and looked, trying to place the shots, comprehend the situation, to be able to have what was happening actually register in their mind sufficiently to take action, etc.
Only an individual operating in Codes: Yellow, Orange, or Red would have recognized the situation and responded immediately when, sadly, so many operate daily in Code: White.

 

[JCSR]

By the time most people look up from their phones it's all over. There is always a few that quickly start videoing. Seen it so many times.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Thought the whole point in oc/cc was to help others...guess those in that area didn't get the memo that it's not just about yourself.

For myself the whole point of carrying is to protect me and mine. Just like the whole point of me having a house is to home me and mine, a car to transport me and mine, truck to haul **** for me and mine. Now have I let people stay at my house, gave them rides, hauled **** for them? Yes, but that isn't the point of me having any of them.

How many gun carriers would take action to defend someone that wasn't them or a loved one?

For myself, depends. How sure am I of what's happening and who is who. In this case it seems like it would be pretty obvious, but in others . And see above for the reason I carry, would taking action endanger mine? Then the answer is not no, it's no ****ing way in hell. If it wouldn't then it depends. I'm not tactical Timmy who is going to claim that I'd jump in 100% of the time, or even at all. Never being put in that situation I honestly have no idea what I'd do, I know what I'd like to say I'd do. But .

Ultimately you have to make the call for yourself. What do you think would happen if Eli had just turned around and walked out of the Greenwood mall that day? What did happen in Uvalde when no one helped those children? Lots to consider.

For Eli he was there and I'm assuming it was pretty obvious what was happening. Two scenarios for you. You see a guy being chased by another man with a gun in his hand and it looks like he's about to shoot, what do you do? Hear gunshots, go to check and there is a LEO and another guy down in the street and another guy with a rifle in hand standing over them, what do you do?

 

[Timjoebillybob]

By the time most people look up from their phones it's all over. There is always a few that quickly start videoing. Seen it so many times.

I have to admit, Kroger is the place you'll most likely see me with a phone in my hand. I have my shopping list on it.

 

[jwamplerusa]

Harsh reality, there are events that will get inside the best situational awareness and your OODA loop.

Insane stabby man walks in and up to someone, pulls knife then stabs them and runs away. Could be over in under 10 seconds.

OODA loop to protect someone other than yourself or immediate family is probably in the order of seconds. Realistically I don't think I would process fast enough to make a difference.

I would like to think I would try, but realistically based upon match performances, unless I was inside 20 feet with a clear backstop I probably would not get effective rounds on target before the perp was running away. See / hear initial event, process what I am seeing in a supposedly benign environment, determine action is required, clear cover and present. I am probably already at 5 plus seconds, maybe eight if my SA was low or I had been focused on another task such as paying.

I would probably be more effective trying to apply first aid, though in this case likely with little effect.

 

[Route 45]

I know this thread is about reacting to someone else getting stabbed. But consider that if you deploy a handgun against someone armed with a knife, you may become the preferred target. Despite all the jokes about bringing a knife to a gunfight, knives are not to be disregarded as extremely deadly weapons. Perhaps more deadly than a gun in close quarters, depending on several factors such as surprise, speed and physical ability. Bringing a gun to a knife fight is not always the winning proposition that it would seem.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Only an individual operating in Codes: Yellow, Orange, or Red would have recognized the situation and responded immediately when, sadly, so many operate daily in Code: White.

I have added another color due to all of the people I see wandering around with their nose buried in their phone and earbuds in. Code Clear. Its worse than white because they arent just relaxed, they are utterly unaware of anything going on outside of that screen.

 

[Wstar425]

Good question. I am not sure personally. For a long time I went to an anti gun church . I had decided as long as the bad guy didn’t **** with me or the wife, I would sit it out if one of those church shootings occurred there.

10 weeks ago I started open carrying to our church, since I don’t have a NM conceal carry license, in some kind of response to our commie .gov trying to ban all carry in Bernalillo County as a health order. I was illegally concealing before that, a mere misdemeanor if you’re discovered.

Last week I had my first and only, so far comment about it. As follows. I’m 65 years old and probably should know better….

Seated elderly woman.
“Do you really need to carry a gun to church?”

Me: I CERTAINLY hope not!”

S.E.W. “I don’t see why ANYONE needs a gun!”

Me: “I’ll do my best to not get between you and anything bad that happens……”

This was walking in, she was sitting by the self help coffee so had a good view while I was pouring my self a cup of Joe. I considered extending the conversation but seemed pointless, and service was soon to start as wife likes to get there 2 minutes before showtime apparently. This all went down without me really stopping my forward progress. I’ve open carried for 15 years, (not to church) have heard all the normal questions, and pretty much have a ready reply to most comments.

 

[bwframe]

Not trying to blame the murder on Kroger, but was their response to the guy threatening to return appropriate enough?

Did they pull video of the bad guy and alert their management and security team along with the local PD?

Should someone there have seen this guy coming the second time?

This was a threat to an employee, but could have easily turned into a suicidal mass murder, right?

 

[Chance]

Not trying to blame the murder on Kroger, but was their response to the guy threatening to return appropriate enough?

Did they pull video of the bad guy and alert their management and security team along with the local PD?

Should someone there have seen this guy coming the second time?

This was a threat to an employee, but could have easily turned into a suicidal mass murder, right?

I do not think the store management handled the stated threat appropriately. Altercation occurred earlier and specific threat was made against that employee. Notify authorities, send employee home or relocate for safety.

 

[Amishman44]

I have added another color due to all of the people I see wandering around with their nose buried in their phone and earbuds in. Code Clear. Its worse than white because they arent just relaxed, they are utterly unaware of anything going on outside of that screen.

There's two (2) other Codes: Brown (froze + crapped) and Black (dead)

 

[KittySlayer]

How many gun carriers would take action to defend someone that wasn't them or a loved one?

My priority for carrying is protecting my loved ones and me. Anyone else is dependent on the situation and my primary priority (loved ones and me).

Kroger and the employee each made their own decisions about what tools they wanted to have to protect themselves. My guess is that Kroger does not allow their employees to have self defense tools and the cashier chose not to carry a weapon.

Anyone else beyond my core group depends on the situation and wandering down the aisles of Kroger I likely do not have all the information. What if the cashier also was a babysitter and had just been diddling the knife guy’s kid?

Maybe I’m a coward but beyond my loved ones and me you are not my priority. I’d like to think I can be a hero but not sure I could.

Oddly enough I was in this Kroger location just a couple of weeks ago even though it is not in my neighborhood. Picking up eggs when driving home from vacation.

 

[Twangbanger]

Those are trigger words for some here. You’ve done it now.

Never had a doubt.

But the peeps who need to be triggered, are the ones who are confident they'd always intervene. Behind almost every youth of a certain description, there's a welfare queen mother, and behind her, almost always an ambulance-chasing lawyer who sees injustice in how things played out. Or, I should more properly say, sees money-making potential behind catering to someone _else's_ sense of injustice about how things played out.

As long as the youth of a certain description keeps consuming oxygen and going about his business, these Pillars of Society will never be heard from. But just let that thug get a hand laid on him...

 

[Chance]

For myself the whole point of carrying is to protect me and mine. Just like the whole point of me having a house is to home me and mine, a car to transport me and mine, truck to haul **** for me and mine. Now have I let people stay at my house, gave them rides, hauled **** for them? Yes, but that isn't the point of me having any of them.

For myself, depends. How sure am I of what's happening and who is who. In this case it seems like it would be pretty obvious, but in others . And see above for the reason I carry, would taking action endanger mine? Then the answer is not no, it's no ****ing way in hell. If it wouldn't then it depends. I'm not tactical Timmy who is going to claim that I'd jump in 100% of the time, or even at all. Never being put in that situation I honestly have no idea what I'd do, I know what I'd like to say I'd do. But .

For Eli he was there and I'm assuming it was pretty obvious what was happening. Two scenarios for you. You see a guy being chased by another man with a gun in his hand and it looks like he's about to shoot, what do you do? Hear gunshots, go to check and there is a LEO and another guy down in the street and another guy with a rifle in hand standing over them, what do you do?

I am comfortable with my ability to make an assessment in the Kroger and the mall
Situations. Your “what if” scenarios don’t have enough information for me to make that kind of call. If I witness an attack and I am convinced that it is an illegal attack on an innocent person(s) I will make my decision then.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I am comfortable with my ability to make an assessment in the Kroger and the mall
Situations. Your “what if” scenarios don’t have enough information for me to make that kind of call. If I witness an attack and I am convinced that it is an illegal attack on an innocent person(s) I will make my decision then.

The scenarios I posted are real life examples, and you have about as much info as the people that were there. And yep as I said, I assume it was pretty obvious to Eli. I posted a couple less obvious.