Las Vegas Shooter: What Could You Do Under Those Circumstances?

[churchmouse]

Move to cover, if you don't know what cover is keep moving until you find something that is. It's hard enough to tag a specific target from 500yds let alone a moving target...and this guy wasn't picking his targets very carefully, certainly at first. So, as John Belushi said: Serpentine!

Me? I stay out of crowds...I don't even like mildly crowded stores, the spidey senses start going crazy. And I hate Vegas, been there too many times for work, if I never go there again it will be too soon.

In this specific situation; unless you had the room next door (and carried a similar arsenal on your vacation) there's not much you could do offensively so we're back to protect your loved ones, move to cover (and don't go there in the first place).

Just a thought....It truly sucks that we live in a free country and by the acts of a few the many are seriously restricted.

 

[Fargo]

As BBI said, if you are caught in a moving crowd, there isn't really anything to "do" other than try to keep your head up and not get trampled and try to avoid being sucked into a choke point like a locked door where you will likely be crushed.

My experience with such things is that you will almost certainly become separated from your companions, and that if you hit the ground you are likely dead.

I personally would try to move within the flow of the crowd toward any object which will break the crowd up and give cover/allow me to stop moving with it.

I hate crowds.

 

[rvb]

also, I found it fascinating in the videos how long people stood around and listened to the gun fire. music had stopped. no screaming. just gunfire. At least that was my impression from the youtube vid I saw. I think when the shooter is 3-400 yards away, people don't realize what gun fire sounds like, even people who shoot. People who have been deployed unfortunately know what down-range gun fire sounds like, or if like me you've been downrange in target pits at matches. But otherwise, that crack of the bullet downrange is way different than the sound when you're standing near the gun. I remember many years ago the first time I was downrange being shocked how @ just 200 yards I barely heard the rifle, it sounded SO far away. And that loud crack of the bullet going by a few feet away doesn't sound like "gun fire."

I told my wife next time we are at the range together I'm going to drop her in the pits and let her hear what bullets flying a few feet away sounds like. That few seconds of wondering "what's that sound?" could make a difference.

-rvb

 

[Cameramonkey]

also, I found it fascinating in the videos how long people stood around and listened to the gun fire. music had stopped. no screaming. just gunfire. At least that was my impression from the youtube vid I saw. I think when the shooter is 3-400 yards away, people don't realize what gun fire sounds like, even people who shoot. People who have been deployed unfortunately know what down-range gun fire sounds like, or if like me you've been downrange in target pits at matches. But otherwise, that crack of the bullet downrange is way different than the sound when you're standing near the gun. I remember many years ago the first time I was downrange being shocked how @ just 200 yards I barely heard the rifle, it sounded SO far away. And that loud crack of the bullet going by a few feet away doesn't sound like "gun fire."

I told my wife next time we are at the range together I'm going to drop her in the pits and let her hear what bullets flying a few feet away sounds like. That few seconds of wondering "what's that sound?" could make a difference.

-rvb

Agreed. A couple months ago I was shooting at Proteq in the south valley. There was a rifle shooter in the west valley. (shooting lanes are perpendicular and cross behind the berms. Shooting positions are blocked by a hill and 1/4mi)

It was crazy. Id hear the crack of the bullet crossing our range, followed shortly afterward by the report from the rifle.

 

[Thor]

Just a thought....It truly sucks that we live in a free country and by the acts of a few the many are seriously restricted.

It does...though mine comes from decades in the military and years of martial arts. When there are too many strangers to keep an eye on it starts to make me uncomfortable. I believe in keeping my head on a swivel but when I have to look like a high speed rotating strobe light to do it it's time to find the exit.

I also think it truly sucks that we live in a country where the acts of a few are used by some in our government to seriously restrict our freedom.

 

[Alpo]

As BBI said, if you are caught in a moving crowd, there isn't really anything to "do" other than try to keep your head up and not get trampled and try to avoid being sucked into a choke point like a locked door where you will likely be crushed.

My experience with such things is that you will almost certainly become separated from your companions, and that if you hit the ground you are likely dead.

I personally would try to move within the flow of the crowd toward any object which will break the crowd up and give cover/allow me to stop moving with it.

I hate crowds.

I keep thinking how much more deadly this scene could have been with an additional shooter located at an exit point. Scary.

 

[rhino]

I have a great video juke box sitting in front of me. Huge selection and plenty nice enough sound.

Forget about getting shot. Being trampled has always been a real concern. Especially after Sunday, firecrackers set off could cause trampling deaths in massive crowds.

Word is the coward shooter was 500ish yards away. As coach said, that's an outlier.
If that yardage changes to 2-300, the truck carbine starts to be a consideration.

Yep! And that could happen no matter what causes the crowd to panic. If you're among them, you're at the mercy of the mob.

Fear is not quite the right way to put it. Active shooter is not a fear. Being disarmed to go to a show, sporting event, concert, or whatever is the fear or deal breaker. I will take my chances with an active shooter if I have my guns. I am not willing to walk in and sit down and be a nice quiet little victim any place other than school, and I don't like doing it there.

I won't ascribe motive to people who use the words "afraid" and "fear" in these discussions, but as you note, that's not what this is about.

One of my buddies talke about staying close to dead bodies as the shooter will be spraying on moving targets.

Or stay close to Rhino and use Rhino as cover.

Hmm... a lot of my cousins can hide behind just one of me!

I am not afraid of mass shooting at large crowds. My concern is fire or mass hysteria causing people to trample each other.

That's definitely one of the more likely events to happen and it has happened. It would suck to be crushed against turnstyles while people are pushing to get out of an arena.

Being trained to treat trauma and keeping your head up is all I have.

Even with some of the fine marksmen on INGO, even armed with our rifle of choice, that would be an almost impossible situation to counterattack (first you would have to identify the location of the shooter in a timeframe that mattered, good luck).

Movement to cover, movement to somewhere you will not be crushed by the herd, those probably help, but not being too drunk to function is probably a pretty good first step. Knowing where the exits and fire extinguishers are, along with some trauma care training is the best plan I have come up with.

If you were at the concert, your chances of being shot are super low. Your chances of finding someone who has been hurt and needs you to help them is pretty decent.

I never drink, so that didn't occur to me, but it's a critically important point. It will be hard enough to observe/orient/decide/act with all of your faculties intact. Being intoxicated could be disastrous.

With no effective way to counterattack, movement to exit (if readily available) or to cover are the best options. Ability and willingness to render medical aid are secondary (not everyone wants to play combat medic).

But I'll go with Rhino on moving away from crowds in a situation like this. If you can't get out/hide quickly, then crowds will draw fire from mass murderers/terrorists. Both have an desire to run up a body count and I prefer my chances away from the major crowds if there is anywhere else to go.

That's what I was thinking. I find it unlikely he was using a magnified optic and targeting individuals. If he had and he were a good marksman, the death toll could easily have been much higher in 11 minutes. It's far more likely that he was spraying into the crowd hoping to hit as many as possible, perhaps with the intent of creating terror (no pun intended) among the crowd. Frightened crowds result in trampled people.

Well said! I like your post-script about moving to cover. Don't just run, run to safety.

Amen!

Vegas is a weird situation. First disclaimer, we really don't know the whole story yet. But it would appear and everyone can agree that a guy discharged as many rounds as he could into a very large crowd from long distance from a super elevated position. Truth is moving or sitting still or hiding or cover was almost irrelevant. He would not have been targeting individuals but rather the crowd. Bullets would have been striking areas before you heard them, bullets would be passing through objects, bullets would be bouncing off the ground. Really it is pure dumb luck if people were hit or missed. How many bullets hit the area before people even noticed that something was wrong?

That's probably the hardest part of reacting in that situation: realizing something is wrong and believing it enough to take action.

My rules .....

If I can't carry, I don't go .....

I have been to one Colts game ..... 1999, they played and beat the Cowboys .....

I went to one concert last year, at Bankers Life, John Mellencamp .....

In this sit., if you can't see your target, you can't hit them .....

A handgun, at 500 yards, is no good .....

Agreed! Sidearms won't help in these situations, but they might in most others.

Sure. Of course, you'll probably only know what was the "right" direction in hindsight and you'll have to avoid crowd pressure.

The crush of the crowd at an outdoor concert during the Super Bowl made me realize it's almost a hydraulic force. I, along with several other cops, were assigned to help get a medic through the crowd to a pregnant woman. It took us about an hour per block to make progress, and that was with long batons being used as a wedge and a cooperative crowd. Had the crowd moved, all you can do is move with it.

Also, shots echo around weird and with all the sensory input, it may be tough to figure out exactly where the shooter is...plus the fact you may not know how many shooters there are.

There are no good options, only less lousy ones. Move toward a building, make entry, get out the other side, and keep moving would probably be the best you could do.

I find it likely that the shooter intended to use the crowd as a weapon on itself, with the shooting the tool to get them scared and moving. Actual hits and kills with his bullets could have been secondary bonuses in his evil mind.

 

[rhino]

Like Rhino, I don't like crowds so I tend to avoid places where they will be.
Over the years I have started leaning toward avoiding places and events where I am forcibly disarmed. Being armed would not have mattered in Vegas.
Getting to cover and then an exit is probably the best plan but I can imagine a scenario where I would be forced to stop and help an injured person.

This scenario gets tougher when you consider the option/need for helping someone else. You have to decide where your risk threshold is, I suppose. I think that while the shooting is underway and the crowd is still moving, it's unlikely that stopping to help someone who is incapacitated is a viable option unless you can drag or carry them with you. If you get injured or killed trying to assist someone who may not even be alive, I think a bad outcome was made worse. After things calm down and the scene is relatively secured, it's time to help other people.

something not mentioned is choosing your location... ie the center of the field might provide the best view/sound, but is it ideal should the crowd rush for any reason, not just something like the Vegas shooter? Maybe favor nearer an exit point, wall, pillar, sound booth, speaker rack, etc? Provide a somewhat close point to head to not only to avoid bullets (or large truck, or whatever) but to get out of the tide of people. Provide a rally point for you an yours to decide where best to go from there... I try to have SA anywhere I go... paying attention to the location of exit points, cover, etc. But this may cause me to choose a seat/location a little closer, too. Not saying you have to stand 6" from an exit, but being a few yards away vs 100 yds away might make the difference in escape and avoiding being trampled...

-rvb

That's a really good point. I've lingered near or had myself seated near exits frequently for that reason.

 

[bwframe]

Yep! And that could happen no matter what causes the crowd to panic. If you're among them, you're at the mercy of the mob...

One of the victims was being interviewed today. She had been shot, then trampled. She then regained mobility and her only escape to cover was walking on others, which she did.

 

[rhino]

One of the victims was being interviewed today. She had been shot, then trampled. She then regained mobility and her only escape to cover was walking on others, which she did.

That's genuine tragedy.

 

[churchmouse]

All this talk about taking cover/zig zag/helping others. I understand. I would be one to drag folks to safety if I was not defending family.

Thing is, exactly how far was this guy. I saw a pic of an iron sight AR that was supposed to be on the floor in the room. If he was shooting iron sights at 400+ then it was a spray the moving crowd thing. Luck of the draw. If it was 500 as some say then even more so.

In this there was no clear way to defend/allude.

 

[Brad69]

CM
you are right on not much you can do when among the sheep.
Two people can drag one so much faster almost at a full run please try to find a partner to help you out!

A trained rifleman can hit a point target at 300 meters reliably 500 meters is the normal limit with iron sights.
500 to 800 meters is considered an area target.

This guy created a perfect cone of fire/ beaten zone where most rounds were not impacting above 5 meters or below 1 meters most rounds hit them in the head or the legs. View attachment 59650

 

[churchmouse]

All this talk about taking cover/zig zag/helping others. I understand. I would be one to drag folks to safety if I was not defending family.

Thing is, exactly how far was this guy. I saw a pic of an iron sight AR that was supposed to be on the floor in the room. If he was shooting iron sights at 400+ then it was a spray the moving crowd thing. Luck of the draw. If it was 500 as some say then even more so.

In this there was no clear way to defend/allude.

OK I need to correct myself. Eotech optic.

 

[Thor]

CM
you are right on not much you can do when among the sheep.
Two people can drag one so much faster almost at a full run please try to find a partner to help you out!

A trained rifleman can hit a point target at 300 meters reliably 500 meters is the normal limit with iron sights.
500 to 800 meters is considered an area target.

This guy created a perfect cone of fire/ beaten zone where most rounds were not impacting above 5 meters or below 1 meters most rounds hit them in the head or the legs. View attachment 59650

And he was shooting down at an angle where he didn't really have to worry about the ballistics...gravity did his hold off for him.

 

[Brad69]

I prefer the EOtech over the ACOG I can hit Steel at 300m easily and quickly.
The ACOG is more accurate at longer range I prefer speed.

 

[KittySlayer]

Great question/ideas/advice so far.

Dress for success. No need for a full battle rattle outfit but think function rather than fashion. No flip flops. Leave the high heels home too. Maybe choose some grey man camouflage that blends with the crowd so you don't stand out. Natural fibers that don't melt on your skin like plastic fibers. Have some pockets so you aren't holding a bunch of crap. Yes in theory you would leave "stuff" behind but dropping that new $1,000 iPhone will make you hesitate. Don't carry a bunch of crap so your hands are free.

Put your phone down. No need to be a videographer. Get your head in the game and keep your situational awareness.

Share your plan(s). Make sure you have talked to your wife, kids, ones you care about. Then there is no explaining, just action. There is also no going back for someone that didn't know the plan.

Run in a zigzag not a straight line.

"Serpentine Shelly. Serpentine!"

 

[Dean C.]

Jeff Coopers color code is still relevant

Condition white, you are relaxed and unaware of what is going on around you. Ideally, a police officer is only in white when asleep, but realistically we often drop our guard when we are at home or in some other environment we assume to be safe, like the squad room.

Condition yellow, you remain relaxed, but are aware of who and what is around you. This means you are paying attention to the sights and sounds that surround you whether you are at home or moving in society.

Condition orange, you have identified something of interest that may or may not prove to be a threat. Until you determine the true nature of whatever has piqued your interest, your “radar” is narrowed to concentrate on the possible threat and will remain so focused until you are satisfied no threat exists.
If the focus of your attention in condition orange does something you find threatening, you will shift to condition red. Notice here that condition red IS NOT the firing stroke, as some instructors have misconstrued from Cooper’s teachings. Instead, condition red simply changes the focus of your attention from a potential threat to a potential target. You will draw your weapon, or move still further to sight acquisition, only if the potential target’s actions dictate such a response.




Being even in condition yellow could have saved your life if you heard the initial shots and you recognize what they were and started moving before the rest of the crowd. I will also be integrating a tourniquet into my personal EDC as well as other random medical supplies like quick clot (I need to find an US Palm ankle rig for these). A pistol is useless in this particular situation which is why this is one of the few mass shootings in the US to really chill me as with others you could have at least feasibly fought back. This shooting did however reinforce my carbine choice with a 1-8 optic loaded with MK262 ammo as that rig could at least place relatively accurate shots on target (though that is incredibly unlikely but still comforting). Possibly integrating some soft armor and composite bladed when I go into "non permissive" environments as well.

 

[actaeon277]

Language warning

[video=youtube_share;bdaQHTWT_ZI]http://youtu.be/bdaQHTWT_ZI[/video]

 

[Alpo]

Memorable piece of film. LOL

 

[KittySlayer]

Memorable piece of film. LOL

Which?

'Generation Kill' or 'The In-Laws'