Lessons learned in the GPM shooting

[88E30M50]

Rather than running downrange, just leave the gun on the bench and run to the metal target shed and back as fast as you can without twisting an ankle. Or do some jumping jacks or pushups near the bench.

Don't have to be alone, just be mindful of who else is around. Even though we don't have any rules about rate of fire, some folks do get nervous about anything more than stationary paper punching.

After I had typed that, I was thinking that it would be better to leave the gun on the bench and sprint to the outhouse and back, then take on the plate rack.

 

[Yup!]

I'm guessing he honored the signs posted.

Cause they quit selling Nachos.

 

[chipbennett]

I'm guessing he honored the signs posted.

So, he chose not to carry at Costco?

 

[bwframe]

After I had typed that, I was thinking that it would be better to leave the gun on the bench and sprint to the outhouse and back, then take on the plate rack.

Another "drill" to consider is making your first shot of the range session drawing to a long shot cold. Can you make THE shot on a 25-40 yard target without a warm up? A zone hit only, edges don't count.

When you are solid on this out to 50 every time, you can incorporate extras like movement while drawing, par time, one hand, weak hand, etc. All first shot cold.

This first shot drill would be a good place to rotate out your carry ammo, besides confirming that's the round you should be carrying. Every range trip you lose one self-defense round.

You can practice this shot later in the day, but make the first cold shot a ritual that is separate and doesn't get watered down into an "eventually I hit it," or "I can hit it 4 out of 5 times."


.

 

[manifest destiny]

One of my takeaways is really just confirmation that large crowds are riskier than ever before. I mean, a mall at closing time on a Sunday? Another thought- distance of engagement. I never practice pistol shooting at 30+yds. Mostly because I fear agenda driven prosecutors. Lastly, as someone who switches out .380 and 9mm EDC based on season and situation... well, the .380 might not be seeing much holster time anymore.

 

[cedartop]

So much to cover here. I hesitate to get too deep into it because most of the "facts" we are hearing are still being disputed. 40 yards seems to be the most common distance thrown out there, but a number of people who frequent that food court say this couldn't have been the case. BBI said initial crime lab estimates put the distance at 76 feet. Some reports say he was braced, some say advancing.

As for equipment, it doesn't matter until it does. I would always rather have too much gun than not enough.

For those talking about mindset, that really seemed to be key here. This is by all accounts just a regular young man and he knocked it out of the park. I am very impressed with his behavior.

For those talking about hitting at 50 or 100. Sure, but don't forget target shooting slow fire is one thing. If reports are close he fired these rounds at a rapid pace.

I shot this target yesterday after running up and back to the 40 yard range. First shots of the day from the draw freestyle shooting at roughly a one second cadence. Even with all of my training and practice you can see I threw a round off the target. And that was with no external stressors.

 

[bwframe]

One of my takeaways is really just confirmation that large crowds are riskier than ever before. I mean, a mall at closing time on a Sunday? Another thought- distance of engagement. I never practice pistol shooting at 30+yds. Mostly because I fear agenda driven prosecutors. Lastly, as someone who switches out .380 and 9mm EDC based on season and situation... well, the .380 might not be seeing much holster time anymore.

Hopefully a lot of folks will reconsider their "carry gun rotation." I always cringe when Colion Noir talks of his.

We need consistency, not to be even slightly thrown off of game by different pistol nuances.


.

 

[jbombelli]

Idk if you've been paying attention, but after July 2nd they popped up at almost every store I go to, whereas before that date, Costco was pretty much there only place I couldn't carry.

It's like with low frequency of carry they were mostly fine with it, but now that literally anyone can, they're posting up signs, so insurance or guidance from their legal teams seems to be a pretty likely explanation.

I don't see those "No Berettas" signs any more often or in any more places than I used to. But I don't look for them, either.

I truly don't believe it's insurance-related. I think even if the company in question says it is, they're just making an excuse to shift any blame off of themselves. "Don't blame us, we like guns. Our insurance carrier requires it ". I call BS on that.

 

[eldirector]

My take away from both TX and Greenwood: Mindset Matters.

 

[Yup!]

My take away from both TX and Greenwood: Mindset Matters.

I don’t defend anything in Uvalde but there is a difference between being in the mess then fighting to get out and being out of the mess and rushing to get in.

 

[88E30M50]

Another "drill" to consider is making your first shot of the range session drawing to a long shot cold. Can you make THE shot on a 25-40 yard target without a warm up? A zone hit only, edges don't count.

When you are solid on this out to 50 every time, you can incorporate extras like movement while drawing, par time, one hand, weak hand, etc. All first shot cold.

This first shot drill would be a good place to rotate out your carry ammo, besides confirming that's the round you should be carrying. Every range trip you lose one self-defense round.

You can practice this shot later in the day, but make the first cold shot a ritual that is separate and doesn't get watered down into an "eventually I hit it," or "I can hit it 4 out of 5 times."


.

I like that idea. First round, 30 yards from your EDC cold and timed.

 

[churchmouse]

Before the dupe police shut this one down, this is not a dupe of the break room discussion, but instead a focus on what we can learn or confirm from the Greenwood Park Mall shooting. The Break Room discussion is largely political, this one is more practical.

Let’s talk through the shooting in the Greenwood Park Mall to see if it changes any commonly held truths. First up for me is that ‘No Guns’ signs are only an insurance requirement and EVERYONE on the thinking side of the earth acknowledges that. Even Simon Property Group is thanking the Armed Samaritan for ignoring their signs.

Next up for me is that 9mm did the job as an unqualified success. I’m a .40 guy that has always preferred .40, .357 Sig or .45. I do carry 9mm but feel better with a larger caliber. This shoot changes that for me somewhat.

Third, capacity matters. If the Armed Samaritan were carrying a J-frame, Sig 238 or other small pocket sized pistol, would he have been able to succeed as he did? Would 5 or 6 rounds from a small pistol been enough to allow successful engagement? That would be a tough call.

Another issue is training. There are many on this site that have said that it’s irresponsible to carry without formal training. This shooting shows that responsibility is required for gaining skills and training is just one path to that goal. Discipline and practice go a long way. Training is great but the same skills can be obtained in other ways.

The biggest lesson here to me though, is mindset. The Armed Samaritan seems to have had a clarity in mission amid a chaotic situation. Each of his actions look to be purposeful and well executed.

Oh you did not call me the Dupe police.

 

[actaeon277]

Oh you did not call me the Dupe police.

For some reason, now the song "Dream Police" is in my head, but it's changed to the "Dupe Police"

 

[miguel]

It may be too early to put this on the board -- and note I'm certainly not against good formal training -- and and and I am putting on my nomex underpants now because I can predict some of the responses I may provoke -- but the whole, "If you can't go to Gun Site quarterly with your custom <whatever brand/model> in <whatever caliber> you might as well not carry..." mentality will hopefully be tempered a bit. I think the VC and Taliban proved an idiot with a gun can be quite effective if he is motivated AND gets the drop on you.

Would it be awesome to do go to training with a big name monthly/quarterly? Hell yes!

Can most people afford the $$$ and time to do it? Hell no!

Competence, tactics and mindset, as mentioned above.

Posted with love and brotherhood for all my more well heeled compatriots here.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BBI said initial crime lab estimates put the distance at 76 feet. Some reports say he was braced, some say advancing.

Close, but what I said was pre-Crime Lab estimates. My role was completed and I was cut loose prior to Crime Lab doing their thing.

I would also note two things can be true. A given shooting could start with a braced shot and then advancing and firing more shots. I am 100% not saying that is the case here, or that it isn't. I've only put out info that is already open source or near enough and, again, I left pretty early on so the info I had at the time I was doing my thing may have changed later.


So here's what I would say:

The first shot is the most important shot. The second is the second most important, etc. Once the bad guy knows where you are and has time to react, a shooting turns into a gunfight. You want a shooting. Especially at distance when the bad guy has the advantage of a long gun. Don't suck with what you carry, if that's an LCR or a 1911, or a Shadow 2 with a 24" magazine.

However good you are with your wondergun, somebody is that good with a pocket pistol. Worry about your skill with your equipment, not what hardware is 'the good one' That first shot needs to count and either kill or start degrading the bad guy before he can react. Stop focusing so much on the gun. The guy who LOST THE GUNFIGHT had a long gun and hundreds of rounds of ammo. The guy who WON THE GUNFIGHT was severely outgunned. What's that tell you? Surprise, speed, ferocity of attack. Focus on that. Get good at that. Be mentally prepared for that. DOING SOMETHING and gaining the initiative, then keeping that initiative until the bad guy can not effectively fight back, wins fights. If you have the element of surprise and use it properly, your odds of prevailing are huge.

Shooting on the move is a very valuable skill to have that is also hard to get solid training and frequent reps in. Gaming is a way to get that.

All the common duty calibers work. Any bullet passing the ENTIRETY of the FBI protocol is going to perform so similarly to any other bullet passing the ENTIRETY of th FBI protocol it's irrelevant. Underpenetration can make a good shot a bad one due to failure to reach important gibbly bits. Overpenetration doesn't matter until it does. Crowded situations are more likely to make that problematic. I will not carry .357 magnum Critical Duty "in town" because it will not stop in a person. Pick an FBI approved cartridge and stop worrying about it further. Spend that mental energy to get good.


Think about the after fight. Don't get smoke checked by another concerned citizen or responding officers. Constantly evaluate if you still need a gun in your hand. Use your voice effectively, communicate what is happening "that guy tried to rob the store, call police" paints a different picture of you in those seeing you for the first time then you standing there with a gun in your hand at the low ready staring at a corpse and a terrified clerk.

Communications for an event this large will be a **** show. Active shooter call will bring officers from surrounding agencies, and not everyone will even have access to the same radio channels. NEVER assume anyone knows you are the good guy. This will get you smoke checked. This was not my first active shooter scene in plain clothes. I am very very cognizant that I need to present myself in a manner that is not a threat until uniformed guys know who I am and why I'm there. Listen to commands, gun put away if possible, never turn toward a voice with a gun in your hand, etc.

 

[Leadeye]

I'll be curious to see, if it's ever released, the sequence and location of the shots. Hunting or gunfight, shoot first and make the first one count.

 

[2A_Tom]

Hopefully a lot of folks will reconsider their "carry gun rotation." I always cringe when Colion Noir talks of his.

We need consistency, not to be even slightly thrown off of game by different pistol nuances.


.

Rotation? Is that like spinning a 6 shooter?

1911A1 GI 5" barrel and if it breaks I have an identical one in the safe.

 

[ditcherman]

I'll be curious to see, if it's ever released, the sequence and location of the shots. Hunting or gunfight, shoot first and make the first one count.

This, as well as his training background, frequency, and experience would be interesting to see.

 

[2A_Tom]

Close, but what I said was pre-Crime Lab estimates. My role was completed and I was cut loose prior to Crime Lab doing their thing.

I would also note two things can be true. A given shooting could start with a braced shot and then advancing and firing more shots. I am 100% not saying that is the case here, or that it isn't. I've only put out info that is already open source or near enough and, again, I left pretty early on so the info I had at the time I was doing my thing may have changed later.


So here's what I would say:

The first shot is the most important shot. The second is the second most important, etc. Once the bad guy knows where you are and has time to react, a shooting turns into a gunfight. You want a shooting. Especially at distance when the bad guy has the advantage of a long gun. Don't suck with what you carry, if that's an LCR or a 1911, or a Shadow 2 with a 24" magazine.

However good you are with your wondergun, somebody is that good with a pocket pistol. Worry about your skill with your equipment, not what hardware is 'the good one' That first shot needs to count and either kill or start degrading the bad guy before he can react. Stop focusing so much on the gun. The guy who LOST THE GUNFIGHT had a long gun and hundreds of rounds of ammo. The guy who WON THE GUNFIGHT was severely outgunned. What's that tell you? Surprise, speed, ferocity of attack. Focus on that. Get good at that. Be mentally prepared for that. DOING SOMETHING and gaining the initiative, then keeping that initiative until the bad guy can not effectively fight back, wins fights. If you have the element of surprise and use it properly, your odds of prevailing are huge.

Shooting on the move is a very valuable skill to have that is also hard to get solid training and frequent reps in. Gaming is a way to get that.

All the common duty calibers work. Any bullet passing the ENTIRETY of the FBI protocol is going to perform so similarly to any other bullet passing the ENTIRETY of th FBI protocol it's irrelevant. Underpenetration can make a good shot a bad one due to failure to reach important gibbly bits. Overpenetration doesn't matter until it does. Crowded situations are more likely to make that problematic. I will not carry .357 magnum Critical Duty "in town" because it will not stop in a person. Pick an FBI approved cartridge and stop worrying about it further. Spend that mental energy to get good.


Think about the after fight. Don't get smoke checked by another concerned citizen or responding officers. Constantly evaluate if you still need a gun in your hand. Use your voice effectively, communicate what is happening "that guy tried to rob the store, call police" paints a different picture of you in those seeing you for the first time then you standing there with a gun in your hand at the low ready staring at a corpse and a terrified clerk.

Communications for an event this large will be a **** show. Active shooter call will bring officers from surrounding agencies, and not everyone will even have access to the same radio channels. NEVER assume anyone knows you are the good guy. This will get you smoke checked. This was not my first active shooter scene in plain clothes. I am very very cognizant that I need to present myself in a manner that is not a threat until uniformed guys know who I am and why I'm there. Listen to commands, gun put away if possible, never turn toward a voice with a gun in your hand, etc.

Thanks, BBI!

Tons of great info, as usual.

 

[churchmouse]

For some reason, now the song "Dream Police" is in my head, but it's changed to the "Dupe Police"

Good song. Saw them do it live in a club setting oh so many years ago.