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  • ckcollins2003

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    Apr 29, 2011
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    Maybe. You don't know how this guy, in a sleep induced state, reacted to this break-in under stress. Surely he could have forgot to flip off the safety. Maybe he was raising the gun and about to flip it off when he got shot. I haven't heard if the guy's seen combat. Maybe he flipped the safety off and as he was getting shot his hand flinched and flipped it back on safe, maybe his body twisted as he shot and he fell on his firearm and it switched off...stranger things have happened. All speculation...all we know is that the weapon was found on-safe. Doesn't mean that in .24 seconds he wasn't about to flip it off and start shooting.

    You realize this man was a Marine right? That alone should tell you one thing. He always knows whether his weapon is on safe or not. His hand is not going to "flinch" the safety to the "safe" position on that particular weapon system after being shot. If anything, he would have moved it from "safe" to the "fire" position. Just the way you are trained when shots are fired.

    Had the weapon been pointed at the police, his weapon wouldn't have been on "safe". Marines are trained that when you point a weapon at something you intend to kill it. Which means as the weapon is raised you put that weapon into fire mode, just as Dross pointed out.

    Whether or not he has seen combat is the part that is irrelevant. Marines train with M16's and M4's for their entire military career. They know how to work the weapon and they abide by the safety rules.

    It seems pretty obvious to me he had no intention of shooting at whoever was breaking into his home, but rather subdue them. Otherwise that rifle would have been firing as the door opened.


    Was he fully awake(?), well trained with un-deteriorated skills(?), battle tested, good under stress(?)

    Fully awake? Yes, you wake up pretty fast when your family and/or your well being is at risk.

    Well trained? He was a United States Marine. Need I say more?

    Battle tested? He may or may not have seen combat, but Marines train with live rounds.

    Good under stress? Every Marine is good under stress and great when they have a familiar weapon at their side.


    Now, I won't state my feelings on the matter since it could raise a big stink. Nor will I defend the police or say that their reports are a lie but I will defend all Marines when their skills are put to the question and they are not here to answer for themselves.

    So please, if you're saying it is his purely his fault that this happened, step into his boots a time or two. :twocents:
     

    tv1217

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    Mar 11, 2009
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    Youngda, I'm gonna assume you don't own, nor have you fired an AR. There's really no way you could even flinch the safety back on, unless you have deformed hands or something.


    Edit: I guess if you have an ambidextrous safety, or you're shooting left handed.
     

    youngda9

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    You realize this man was a Marine right? That alone should tell you one thing. He always knows whether his weapon is on safe or not.

    You're a cop entering the house on a raid...you know the suspect is an Iraq war veterain Marine. You bust through the door with your firearm at the ready position. Next thing you see is Jose coming around the corner with his rifle in hand at the low-ready position(hypothetically speaking since many doubt he ever pointed the rifle at the cops).

    What is your move? Do you check to see if the safety is on/off? Do you hope he doesn't raise the weapon and shoot you in the blink of an eye...because he will before you can even get a shot back(action beats re-action). You might kill him shooting back, but he might already have killed you as well. Do you shout for him to drop the weapon, because as you're saying drop...you might be catching bullets in the teeth.

    So armchair quarterbacks, what say you? :popcorn:

    If you're answer is anything but shoot the guy with a rifle then you might just be dead.

    I am claiming the fact that the rifle was on-safe is COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT. All of you guys puffing out your chest and shouting "Marine", "trained Marine", "United States Marine", "need I say more", etc. are not facing the realities that this "trained Marine" could raise the gun while flipping off the safety and put round(s) into your head before you could react fast enough to shoot back.

    If the police come through the door and the gun isn't falling or already on the ground...expect to get shot.
     

    USMC_0311

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    Jul 30, 2008
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    Anderson
    You're a cop entering the house on a raid...you know the suspect is an Iraq war veterain Marine. You bust through the door with your firearm at the ready position. Next thing you see is Jose coming around the corner with his rifle in hand at the low-ready position(hypothetically speaking since many doubt he ever pointed the rifle at the cops).

    What is your move? Do you check to see if the safety is on/off? Do you hope he doesn't raise the weapon and shoot you in the blink of an eye...because he will before you can even get a shot back(action beats re-action). You might kill him shooting back, but he might already have killed you as well. Do you shout for him to drop the weapon, because as you're saying drop...you might be catching bullets in the teeth.

    So armchair quarterbacks, what say you? :popcorn:

    If you're answer is anything but shoot the guy with a rifle then you might just be dead.

    I am claiming the fact that the rifle was on-safe is COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT. All of you guys puffing out your chest and shouting "Marine", "trained Marine", "United States Marine", "need I say more", etc. are not facing the realities that this "trained Marine" could raise the gun while flipping off the safety and put round(s) into your head before you could react fast enough to shoot back.

    If the police come through the door and the gun isn't falling or already on the ground...expect to get shot.

    They did not know he was a veteran.
     

    USMC_0311

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    Then answer the question as if you didn't know he was a veterain...

    A non-Marine could swing the gun up and put rounds on target just as fast, with practice.

    There many more factors to conisider before I can give you an answer on what I would do. First off I probably would have knocked and waited until he came out.

    If my gun is pointed at you, and your gun is the down ready, I would order you to drop it. You think you can get it ready before I finished off the last lb of trigger? A flash bang, and rush would have been my choice if I thought it was a lawful service of a warrant.
     

    youngda9

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    There many more factors to conisider before I can give you an answer on what I would do. First off I probably would have knocked and waited until he came out.
    Sorry, but that's not the premise...you've just breeched the door.

    If my gun is pointed at you, and your gun is the down ready, I would order you to drop it.
    BANG, you're dead.

    You think you can get it ready before I finished off the last lb of trigger?
    Yes, BANG, you're dead. Even if you tie, you lose your life. You're willing to take that risk with your life?

    A flash bang, and rush would have been my choice if I thought it was a lawful service of a warrant.
    Great, but that's not what we're talking about now. And if you were a SWAT officer you would do as your superiors told you, you wouldn't have your nose in a law book, en route to a raid, researching the legalities of a warrent you probably know little about.
     

    moresigs

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    Feb 11, 2009
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    I think everyone is missing the big picture here. We all claim we would open fire on anyone comming in our home like the swat members did. On the other side of the coin the swat team did the same thing we say we would have done. They opened fire on an armed suspect. They reacted just as we say we would had we seen a man with a gun in our home. Swat is doing their very dangerous job in very dangerous times. They may be wanna be commandos, and even arrogant jerks, however they are doing a job. They should not be convicted in this case.
    The ones who should be prosecuted and convicted here are the ones who requested the warrant. The ones who did the craptactular investigation. The ones who did not verify every little detail. They are the ones responsible, the ones that put everyone in harms way and caused every part of this.
    Swat got screwed on this and the family got destroyed because of others, not each other!!! Each person after the pisspoor information given, the warrent issued and door kicked in did what they thought was right and were trained to do with the split seconds given them.
    I pray this never happens to me, my family, friends or others. I pray I never have to look at a gun pointed at me in my own home and fire first. We have to stop going after people doing their jobs and people defending what they hold dear. We need to start holding the people who start the chain reaction accountable.
     

    USMC_0311

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    Sorry, but that's not the premise...you've just breeched the door.

    No I didn't, 1st I would make my own door.

    BANG, you're dead.
    Wrong I am still here debateing on going in.

    Yes, BANG, you're dead. Even if you tie, you lose your life. You're willing to take that risk with your life?

    No risk for me, but I have no problem risking yours.


    Great, but that's not what we're talking about now. And if you were a SWAT officer you would do as your superiors told you, you wouldn't have your nose in a law book, en route to a raid, researching the legalities of a warrent you probably know little about.


    You don't know me very well, I never do as I am told. I do as I feel.
     

    youngda9

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    You don't know me very well, I never do as I am told. I do as I feel.

    That doesn't sound like a very good soldier. Seems you're only willing to try to change and make up new scenarios from the one presented in reality.

    I'd rather talk about reality...not going to waste my time with someone who claims they are not going to not follow orders(I'm assuming this is complete BS because your screen name and signature makes me think you are a Marine, and thus quite used to following orders), go back in time and disobey their superiors and do things a different way(this is a police, not military operation...although the line may be blurry)...and speculate on some different outcome based on a fantasy scenario. No thanks.
     

    E5RANGER375

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    Feb 22, 2010
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    BOATS n' HO's, Indy East
    That doesn't sound like a very good soldier. Seems you're only willing to try to change and make up new scenarios from the one presented in reality.

    I'd rather talk about reality...not going to waste my time with someone who claims they are not going to not follow orders(I'm assuming this is complete BS because your screen name and signature makes me think you are a Marine, and thus quite used to following orders), go back in time and disobey their superiors and do things a different way(this is a police, not military operation...although the line may be blurry)...and speculate on some different outcome based on a fantasy scenario. No thanks.
    uhpt oh. now you opened up a can I dont think you should have opened.
     

    USMC_0311

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    Anderson
    That doesn't sound like a very good soldier. Seems you're only willing to try to change and make up new scenarios from the one presented in reality.

    I'd rather talk about reality...not going to waste my time with someone who claims they are not going to not follow orders(I'm assuming this is complete BS because your screen name and signature makes me think you are a Marine, and thus quite used to following orders), go back in time and disobey their superiors and do things a different way(this is a police, not military operation...although the line may be blurry)...and speculate on some different outcome based on a fantasy scenario. No thanks.


    lawfull orders?
     

    USMC_0311

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    Should have made that purple perhaps...but for a Marine(I'm assuming) to claim "I never do as I am told" and that he doesn't follow orders is completely ridiculous.

    Can't have a rational discussion with someone who is going to make claims like that.


    What's so rational about you premise? You made up a scenario I made up a response.

    I don't get how you can justify the killing of Jose with the real facts we have. You don't even know the facts and you make then up as you go long.
     

    USMC_0311

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    I think the cops tripped going into the door causing a ND and the rest joined in the cluster ****. Then they found the gun in the closet set it next to him and forgot to take the safety off.
     

    youngda9

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    lawfull orders?
    Copied from post #50.
    youngda9 said:
    Great, but that's not what we're talking about now. And if you were a SWAT officer you would do as your superiors told you, you wouldn't have your nose in a law book, en route to a raid, researching the legalities of a warrent you probably know little about.

    I feel like Bill Murray Groundhog Day? :wallbash:
     

    E5RANGER375

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    Feb 22, 2010
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    BOATS n' HO's, Indy East
    Should have made that purple perhaps...but for a Marine(I'm assuming) to claim "I never do as I am told" and that he doesn't follow orders is completely ridiculous.

    Can't have a rational discussion with someone who is going to make claims like that.

    well even in regular units split second intel required you to act immediately or people die. with certain units in the military there are no clear cut orders. no commander holding your hand with you in the field telling you the precise way to accomplish your mission. they are the free thinkers of the military, and guess what? they are the ones who use their personal judgement in the split second to get it done. they dont need a babysitter. not all of the military is as cut and dry as you think and its a good thing.
     
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