Why a pump shotgun? I have an older 73 year old friend who was basically a mentor to me at my job and he is now retired. He is scared due to the riots etc. He asked me what type of gun he should buy for self protection at his condo. Of course people tell him to buy a 45 or an AR and some gun counter salesman told him to buy a pump shotgun. I said NO, what you need is a lightweight semi-auto shotgun. I told him as a senior he might have trouble pumping a shotgun when the nerves kick in and the SHTF. I also told him arthritis and old age may make him pump the shotgun too slow. I'm going to help him select a shorter barrel semi-auto shotgun and get a tactical light on it. He can load it and put it on safe under his bed (he has no grandchildren / no little kids around). Then if the SHTF all he has to do is grab it and flip it off safe and point it and shoot if needed. Plus if he got wounded in the arm he could still cycle the loaded semi-auto shotgun. I feel that in self defense situations for many people it's better to go semi-auto instead of pump shotgun.
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Looking for some Shotgun answers
- Thread starter wcd
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Why a pump shotgun? I have an older 73 year old friend who was basically a mentor to me at my job and he is now retired. He is scared due to the riots etc. He asked me what type of gun he should buy for self protection at his condo. Of course people tell him to buy a 45 or an AR and some gun counter salesman told him to buy a pump shotgun. I said NO, what you need is a lightweight semi-auto shotgun. I told him as a senior he might have trouble pumping a shotgun when the nerves kick in and the SHTF. I also told him arthritis and old age may make him pump the shotgun too slow. I'm going to help him select a shorter barrel semi-auto shotgun and get a tactical light on it. He can load it and put it on safe under his bed (he has no grandchildren / no little kids around). Then if the SHTF all he has to do is grab it and flip it off safe and point it and shoot if needed. Plus if he got wounded in the arm he could still cycle the loaded semi-auto shotgun. I feel that in self defense situations for many people it's better to go semi-auto instead of pump shotgun.
Gotta disagree, your perpetuating the myth that shotguns are user friendly. Autoloaders, especially light ones, kick the crap out of a person because they need full power shells to be truly reliable. Older people are much better served by a pump with low recoil rounds. Even better a nice ar15 with a pmag full of 62gr defense ammo.
Yep. Semi autos with the same shells will have less recoil then a pump. But like you said the semi will likely require full power shells. People will call me crazy but the least recoil combination is a 12 gauge 870 or 500 with reduced recoil buckshot and a short stock.
Also a semi auto may not cycle correctly when shot with one hand. The flip side to this is a pump can’t be babied. Running a shotgun correctly is not for the faint of heart.
I completely agree
I've had my butt handed to me by some old fellers in 3 gun shotgun, but they are the exceptions.
Everyone who goes to the range with me can spend all day behind the 300blk, the FN slp and the franchi get winces and rapidly fading form as the shooters anticipate recoil.
I've got a sawed off over under that I can put reduced recoil 00 in that's honestly an extremely pleasant shotgun.
If you practice and learn to use a bead, it's the fastest sighting system there is for a firearm.
If you do not practice with your firearm, and can not make snap shots with a bead, then a rear sight will eliminate that learning curve at the cost of slowing you down significantly.
I'm personally a fan of semi-autos, but to get a reliable one costs about 4 times what a good pump costs. (Benelli M4)
I don't trust myself to run the pump perfectly every single time under the worst circumstances, and don't mind giving up the ability to run the weakest of bunny fart loads.
A detachable magazine really has no place on a shotgun. The ammo is too large, and it's a gun you need to constantly top off. A magazine removes the ability to top off while adding significant amounts of bulk and complexity to the firearm.
You'd be surprised what you can do with 00 buck and the right choke.
I'm getting an 8-10" pattern at 25 yards with a full choke.
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thunderchicken
Grandmaster
As others said a semi auto often requires full power rounds to properly operate also not all autoloaders have less felt recoil than a pump. Felt recoil has a number of factors involved. A pump is just simple to use you can use any power load you want effectively. I have never heard of anyone with two functional arms that can't work a pump regardless of age. Holds ad many or more rounds vs a semi auto too and is often easier for someone with arthritis in their hands to lock open. If you give it a few roumds you can easily get acclimated to just a bead front sight or a fiber optic bead. If recoil is a real issue then look at gettin a Falcon Strike recoil reducer pad. Unlike standard recoil pads it is an oil filled recoil damper. Keep it simple
B.S.
You guys must not have any semi-auto shotguns. I have two and have never had to use full power rounds. Look at this video. Guy is cycling 7 rounds of bird shot through a Black Aces semi-auto in barely over 1 second. I don't have this particular model but I can fire light load bird shot rounds through both of my semi-autos just like this. Let's see you do that with a pump. I have pump shotguns too but you guys must have some cheap semi-autos if you think you can only use power shells through them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmm6wHYyugU&list=LL_fnGd1Y-NfUX1h56UGKYbA&index=2&t=0s
B.S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmm6wHYyugU&list=LL_fnGd1Y-NfUX1h56UGKYbA&index=2&t=0s
If you're using a black aces shotgun as an example of reliability and versatility you should keep looking. They are notoriously bad shotguns. First hand experience.
Im a shotgun fan, but they are most reliably the most unreliable guns throughout a training event or a 3 gun match. I have a defensive rig set up for my slp that i train with, but it's a "only if my other choice is a mini14" gun.
Bird shot can be fully loaded powder charges, so show me someone running a factory autoloader with low recoil shells.
I personally cannot get any of my autos to run reliably with the low recoil rounds. Buckshot or birdshot. They do fine with standard loads.
1 in 2 people that bring their shotguns to the range to run drills or learn it for the first time will have boxes of low recoil spo they end getting to train bolt action shotgun.
And i don't have cheap shotguns. Franchi intensity for inertia and an fn slp mk1 police gas gun. Ive had an m4 (should have kept), and a 1301 tactical. I can run big boy shells without issues, other than bruises, but none of these will reliably run low recoil. Any low recoil load is guaranteed to fte or ftf at some point in a magazine.
Statement stands. An ar15 with 30rd magazine and defensive hollow point or soft point ammo will always be a better option. It will always be easier to operate, easier to reload, faster to follow up, easier to control, and easier to shoot better than a shotgun in a home defense situation.
I love shotguns, but it's a complete disservice to the gun community to perpetuate the myth that they are a good defense gun for beginners and elderly. Reloading alone requires constant training to be proficient.
This right here. ^^^
It's just a matter of technique. Don't let that scattergun push you around or beat you up.
Old guys, teenagers and petite women can run a 12 gage just fine, with the right technique.
Costa, Haley and a newbie (Steve Fisher) taught us all this in the Art Of The Dynamic Shotgun ten years ago...
[video=youtube;1XCv0X6SqUg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XCv0X6SqUg[/video]
thunderchicken
Grandmaster
B.S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmm6wHYyugU&list=LL_fnGd1Y-NfUX1h56UGKYbA&index=2&t=0s
Ok first off quit talking out your ass. Wasn't it you that was asking for info regarding a recommendation for a shotgun to be used by a 73 yo man with arthris? If you feel so strongly that it's the best recommendation GO FOR IT.
Being able to blast off shots fast is great but you have to do it on target for it to matter.
I shoot shotguns like a lot of guys shoot AR's. I have extensive experience with a wide range of shotguns including semi autos. Not all will cycle lighter loads the same as full power loads. That is a fact. Also just because it maybe a semi auto does not mean it will be softer shooting either. A pump gun is just as good for the average person for home defense use as any semi auto. It's pretty much like arguing semi auto vs revolver. Both will do the job just fine in qualified hands and what is best for someone else is best decided by what that person feels most comfortable with using and what they will actually practice with.
I have a variety of shotguns including semi autos. Shoot light loads through an A5 with the gas ring installed for heavy loads...you most of the time end up with a single shot. Browning B-80 which is the same as a Berreta 303 (in fact was made by Beretta for Browning) get one for 3" magnums and run 2 3/4 light target loads through it...yep single shot. There are others as well. Not all semi's have that issue but many variations do. Some were designed for heavy loads such as those used for hunting ducks and have stiffer springs that light loads just won't cycle 100% of the time.
Give your 73 yo friend the opportunity to shoot both and see what he is comfortable with and let him decide.
Carry on, just don't get carried away
Sp are you saying that to be good with a shotgun you require specialized skills building? We all agree. I have shot high volume shotgun classes, even the instructors get tenderized, I've shot high volume multi day ar classes, and i can guarantee you everyone felt better on day 2 with an ar than day 2 with shotguns.
There is no denying a 12ga will beat you up more than an ar15 in 223 out 300blk. Watch the multigun pro's, even they are getting beat up and they are running guns tuned to their loads.
A shotgun is absolutely not a beginners firearm, or something the average shooter should opt for.
But if you do run buckshot regularly and practice reloading regularly, there should be no question about its validity.
I'd recommend not even owning birdshot, especially not for practice. If you need to shoot a bird, go for it.
Being familiar with your pattern with the specific buckshot load you stack deep with, is what makes it or breaks it.
thunderchicken
Grandmaster
I disagree...bear with me. As we all know there are a number of gun owners who really aren't all that passionate about being prepared to defend themselves or others. Most never seek out more training than maybe a friend or family member showing them the basics. And most are comfortable thinking they are good to go because they can hit a stationary target while taking their time to carefully aim. I always tell people that is like throwng darts at a dart board and the real world doesn't work that way in a defensive situation.
Also, without data in front of me I would bet most home defense situations where a gun is used in defense, I bet most don't result in being an actual "gunfight" and are more of a one and done exchange.
For many casual untrained gun owners a shotgun is easy to use and easy to hit man sized targets with and that is all they need. Shotguns are easy enough to learn how to run that it can be taught to a spouse that isn't really into guns or a younger family member that could conceivably hole up in the bedroom while on the phone with police and covering the bedroom door like the last room at the Alamo in defense of themselves. I would also venture to bet most gun owners would be very hesitant to take the fight to someone in a home defense situation making a shotgun perfectly well suited for this role.
Also vs a rifle what is the penetration difference through barriers typically found in the home like walls? They may not penetrate as many unintended targets if actually fired by the untrained oor minimally trained casual gun owner. So again it all comes back to training and comfort. If the person is willing to practice and train and more into the gun culture then yes other options are better suited
Shotguns in the home should be loaded with buckshot. #1 or 00 is best. Yes it penetrates barriers. But if something won’t penetrate a wall it also won’t penetrate whatever else needs penetrated. I could also make the case for using #4 buckshot which won’t penetrate walls as badly but you also give something up. Remember a person is responsible for every pellet so gun, shell combination and testing the patterns is critical.
I use less expensive birdshot for practice. And reduce recoil 00 for home defense. They feel similar in recoil. birdshot is absolutely not for any type of personal protection.
Shotguns with proper ammo ends fights. Period. If I were to trust people like Tom Givens, shotgun fights don’t last long.
If not popping through walls is a concern I would go with something like 55 grain Federal TRU. Yeah it sucks getting into the meaty bits of bad guys but it also doesn’t over penetrate walls. Plus it is pretty cheap if you buy it by the case.
I use less expensive birdshot for practice. And reduce recoil 00 for home defense. They feel similar in recoil. birdshot is absolutely not for any type of personal protection.
Shotguns with proper ammo ends fights. Period. If I were to trust people like Tom Givens, shotgun fights don’t last long.
If not popping through walls is a concern I would go with something like 55 grain Federal TRU. Yeah it sucks getting into the meaty bits of bad guys but it also doesn’t over penetrate walls. Plus it is pretty cheap if you buy it by the case.
I have watched shooters and hunters w many yrs experience flub running their beloved pumps and autos.
Boggles my mind.
Have run both without issue for decades. Jumping critters, mult targets or hits
Shot and slug.
Its not an equipment issue most times, but operator. And that due to some programming glitches.
Some people, no matter how familiar w an item.....just cant use it. They lack mental and or physical ability.
It aint that hard .
Comical really
Boggles my mind.
Have run both without issue for decades. Jumping critters, mult targets or hits
Shot and slug.
Its not an equipment issue most times, but operator. And that due to some programming glitches.
Some people, no matter how familiar w an item.....just cant use it. They lack mental and or physical ability.
It aint that hard .
Comical really
A 2" group of 9 pellets is not easier to put on a target than a 5.56.
Any load suitable for defense out of a shotgun is going to penetrate more housing materials than a 55gr pill from a 5.56.
Like I said, it is not a firearm for beginners, it's a special purpose firearm intended for someone who is intimately familiar with what a shotgun does and does not do, and can and has operated it under stress. Just because a long chain of internet mythology exists around the shotgun, does not make that mythology correct. If it was the easiest firearm to fight will, it would be the primary issue firearm for US forces.
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