lots of police called on me

[wheels47933]

you need to file a tourt claim first. that will tell them that you might file a lawsuit.. and gives you 2 years to file just to get your duck in line... ive got a hell of a lawyer on issues like this..

The Journal Review

thats me in there ill give you his name if you want it...

 

[SavageEagle]

Totally different situation. Your hypothetical scenario involves an actual crime being committed, not just some pantywaist cashier calling the cops on you, because they are oblivious to the law.

QFT

I read the last two pages and it seems that everyone went off the deep end throwing out hypothetical and twisted versions of what happened here. This guy was assaulted and threatened with death by police officers. I've been in a similar situation for walking down the street with my friends at night doing NOTHING wrong. I was young and dumb and did nothing and now that officer is still on the police force when other, better officers, were fired.

I hope he truly does something about this situation and those ignorant officers lose their badge. They are obviously not cut out for this line of work.

 

[ryanbr]

I was just trying to show how the police dont know you or your intentions. Not sayin that the police were right in this in any way. wasnt there, so dont know if it all actually played out like posted. but had a call of man with gun in an area known for robberies as stated by someone earlier from FT.Wayne. So do you really expect the police to not have thier guard up when they dont know you. if the comments were made about shooting you in a bank big problems. But going up on a call with a man with a gun i am going to make sure I am safe. Thing to remember here is that there was only one person posting here that was actually there. My opinion.

 

[txgho1911]

Given the opportunity of a 7 min wait an audio recorder should be running in your pocket or inside the vehicle by an open window.

It may be worth the grief to get a lawyer involved or outside agency to seize and preserve the PD audio/video. The lawyer may be needed to prompt the action or to outright subpoena or prompt the DA to cause this preservation.

Many people have had a bad experience. Some more than others. Some folks who do OC never speak to LEO.
I have one instance in memory I wish had recorded. Former Pub Relations ISP turned patrol Sup has a junior approach to initiate contact. I turn the communication to her and get to listen to way to much lecture. Also lotts of opinion and rant from her over the crazy vets coming home to throw their asses around. All of this in front of a trainee. Stayed calm and cool throughout and dismissed myself as my food was getting cold.

Keep a recorder handy. Lot of dual use MP3 players may play FM and podcasts as well as audio recorders.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[inav8r]

[...] the FACT is that OC IS LEGAL so the issue is that why are LEGAL U.S. citizens being ordered to the ground like criminals by police who are sworn to protect them, when the citizens have committed no crime. [...]

Quick question here. Yuo [sic] draw your weapon on someone trying to rob X place. The cops show up and you have bad guy proned out on the ground. Many people are around. Cops roll up, you are ordered to drop your weapon, remember cops dont know you from bad guy. You are proned out and cuffed a long with BG, till situation is sorted out. Then determined who bad guy is, you were legally carrying. Bad guy goes to jail. Do you feel your rights were violated then?

No because pointing your weapon at someone CAN be a crime, though in this case it wouldn't be. There's no way they would know who you are and if your pointing of a gun is legal or not as soon as they roll up. If cops see someone pointing a gun at someone of course they should interact. [...]

We need to remember that just the act of carrying a gun in a public place *MAY* be a crime (if the person carrying doesn't have an LTCH). So when a cop rolls up on someone and they can tell they're carrying the cop does have cause to treat that individual like a criminal until it's determined that the person has an LTCH (As I've demonstrated in my previous post in this thread.) Now what *I* want is: to be treated with the same respect they want from me in return. If I'm casually going about my business and bothering no one then I would expect the encounter to be casual and bother no one else around me. Unfortunately this does give them the ability to put us in cuffs while they're sorting things out - I just hope this behavior (cuffs on the curb) is the exception and not the rule.

 

[SavageEagle]

<snip>
If I'm casually going about my business and bothering no one then I would expect the encounter to be casual and bother no one else around me. Unfortunately this does give them the ability to put us in cuffs while they're sorting things out - I just hope this behavior (cuffs on the curb) is the exception and not the rule.

Now, don't get me wrong, I OC everywhere. Everywhere legal of course. One thing you have to remember is that if the cops are called, you bothered someone. Yes, that person needs thicker skin, for sure, but you still bothered someone.

Granted, that still gives the leo's NO reason to treat you like a criminal. Innocent until PROVEN guilty anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

 

[inav8r]

[...] Granted, that still gives the leo's NO reason to treat you like a criminal. Innocent until PROVEN guilty anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Some would argue that just the mere act of an LEO asking to see their LTCH is akin to being treated like a criminal.

 

[SavageEagle]

Some would argue that just the mere act of an LEO asking to see their LTCH is akin to being treated like a criminal.

Yes, but isn't it law if they ask you have to show?

 

[rambone]

We need to remember that just the act of carrying a gun in a public place *MAY* be a crime (if the person carrying doesn't have an LTCH). So when a cop rolls up on someone and they can tell they're carrying the cop does have cause to treat that individual like a criminal until it's determined that the person has an LTCH (As I've demonstrated in my previous post in this thread.)

Some would argue that just the mere act of an LEO asking to see their LTCH is akin to being treated like a criminal.

Driving a car "MAY" be a crime. Does that give cops the right to pull you over for no reason and demand to see your papers? Don't you think it would be wise wise to restrict the Government's expansive powers and make officers actually witness something that looked remotely criminal, other than the fact that there is a car on the road and the driver "MAY" not have paid the Man to register it in his name?


King George used to pull that kind of thing on his subjects. Then some smart guys wrote a manual for stopping it.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
​

Standing in public, breathing free air, and exercising your rights is not "probable cause" for Government agents to even talk to you, let alone shove your face in the dirt, pull out your wallet, and check your papers. Bottom line.

 

[thompal]

Standing in public, breathing free air, and exercising your rights is not "probable cause" for Government agents to even talk to you, let alone shove your face in the dirt, pull out your wallet, and check your papers. Bottom line.

BINGO!! Anyone who claims that the lawful exercise of their rights is probable cause for the police to handcuff and detain someone would have felt right at home in Stalinist Soviet Union.

I find it honestly difficult to imagine that anyone on this forum would advocate such a thing. Heck, they might as well just collect the names of EVERY user here, and every time they see ANY of us off of our property, throw us on the ground, handcuff us, and search us and our cars. After all, we MIGHT have a handgun, but we MIGHT NOT have a license. If the mere fact that someone carries a gun is probable cause that they are committing a crime, then the fact that they MIGHT be carrying a gun should certainly also be probable cause.

I would guess that they should also stop and search EVERY car they see on the road, because each driver MAY not have a valid license. How is that any different?

 

[inav8r]

Driving a car "MAY" be a crime. Does that give cops the right to pull you over for no reason and demand to see your papers? [snip]

BINGO!! Anyone who claims that the lawful exercise of their rights is probable cause for the police to handcuff and detain someone would have felt right at home in Stalinist Soviet Union.

I find it honestly difficult to imagine that anyone on this forum would advocate such a thing. [...snip...]

How is that any different?

It *IS* different because the Indiana Supreme court made it so in Harris v State.

Your above example of getting pulled over for merely driving a car is not the same. You can not point to any law or case law where this is permitted in Indiana. However, there is *PLENTY* of case law that supports the position that an LTCH is a defense to the unlawful act of carrying a gun.

Fortunately for all of us we have plenty of examples posted here on these forums where LEO's left lawful people alone while carrying. (This is a good thing, this *is* how it should be). But we also have plenty of examples where LEO's asked for "papers" (lame, but not a violation of Indiana law). All I am suggesting is that the LEO's are not violating any law or precedent when doing so.

Weather or not being asked to present your LTCH by a LEO is a violation of our rights is a whole different debate that I wasn't really trying to get into - but apparently I've treaded upon those toes here. I'm not a lawyer, my understanding and interpretation of these cases could very well be completely wrong. But they are the basis of my argument. I promise that I am not pro-Stalin or Anti-2A.



As for the "law" violating our "rights" argument (which I really don't want to get involved in) - I concede. We can, unfortunately, find plenty of examples of this, in Indiana and elsewhere. While it doesn't make it right it also doesn't guarantee that you would prevail in today's court when challenging "the above" in court.

 

[jbombelli]

Agreed. If it's not okay to pull over vehicles randomly to check driver's license status, how is it okay to prone someone out at gunpoint and cuff them so you can check LTCH status?????

I don't see any difference. I don't see how either one establishes any sort of reasonable suspicion to detain someone. Especially at gunpoint.

 

[patton487]

Maybe you should make a youtube video telling your story, might put some pressure on FWPD if enough people see it and see that your a average guy standing up for his rights, heck you might even get some donations for legal fees.

What ever happens. I respect you standing up for your rights.

 

[jbombelli]

What if people in Fort Wayne started carrying rifles instead? No license needed for that, so no reason to detain and check. Exercising your rights is NOT reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

Right?

How about we all get together this summer and do that? I'd be up for that... I hate a**holes with badges (as opposed to most cops), and think this would open their eyes to what might happen if they don't stop hassling people.

 

[trnsplntfrmohio]

Anyone want to take a trip down to the 1500 on Saturday with me? I'm planning on leaving at 10ish.

 

[thompal]

It *IS* different because the Indiana Supreme court made it so in Harris v State.

Your above example of getting pulled over for merely driving a car is not the same. You can not point to any law or case law where this is permitted in Indiana. However, there is *PLENTY* of case law that supports the position that an LTCH is a defense to the unlawful act of carrying a gun.

The difference is that he was not initially detained, questioned, or arrested merely for carrying without a license. That was merely the prosecutor "piling on" charges. There was PLENTY of probable cause in this case, since it consisted of a bunch of people getting together to rob a drug dealer. This wasn't a case of one guy walking down the road and getting detained simply because he was carrying a handgun. Besides, depending on how the appeal was written, the supreme court apparently didn't deal with the lawfulness of the original contact, but only the conviction for that charge.

 

[E5RANGER375]

We need to remember that just the act of carrying a gun in a public place *MAY* be a crime (if the person carrying doesn't have an LTCH). So when a cop rolls up on someone and they can tell they're carrying the cop does have cause to treat that individual like a criminal until it's determined that the person has an LTCH

Sorry buddy your wrong. i have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty unless the officer witnesses for himself, me committing a crime, or has sufficent witnesses to give him probable cause to believe i did. the act of carrying a gun if your lisenced is not illegal, so the first and only rthing the officer has the right to open his mouth and say to me is: can i see your LTCH?" thats it. he dont need to be asking for my drivers license or any other questions, cause if he does hes not getting an answer. they dont have the right to know where youve been or why you went there, or ask you to walk a strait line on your hands, etc. the only purpose those questions are for is for him to build a case against you!!! dont forget it. you are innocent in the beginning and they know it, so as long as you dont open your big mouth and give them probably cause for something else like ilegal spitting on the ground then you are going home that night. i cant believe all the people (criminals) on the show COPS that i see who if they would have kept their mouth shut would have never went to jail.

SIMPLE BREAKDOWN: The ONLY reason a cop ask you questions is to build a case to hand over to a prosecuter, end of story. KEEP YOUR MOUTHS SHUT!!!

 

[DocGlock86]

Personally I am not a fan of open carry (for myself) just because of the problem's it causes... if someone else want't to fine by me.

if it was me I would at least file a formal complaint with the PD on the ground's of not being profesional and request to watch/listen to the video from the patrol car's with the cheif. If they showed up with their light's flashing it is on video... even if they turned them off it is still on video. I have been told by many that they continue to record for quite a while later.


Also, if someone was upset and said something about a gun that I had honestly I would not stick around, chances are they will call it in saying I was barandishing it and pointing it at people and even if they don't a man with a gun 911 call's never go over well.

I also don't like people to know what I have or don't have....

So you think leaving would be a good idea if you thought the person called it in saying you was "brandishing it and pointing it at people"? I'm thinking you take off it's going to make you look like you've got something to hide. Just me but if I'm not there to defend myself then who knows what the first officer on scene is going to here. So when they get your vehicle's description and track you down they are going to think the worse or at least I would if I was LEO.

What I would do if I was in that situation, if opportunity allowed I would call 911 first if it looks like they are going to get called anyways. That way I could explain what exactly is going on. If I couldn't call first I would go back in the store buy a 40oz Mountain Dew and a Slim Jim, sit on the curb, wait, and just hope I get the LEO who isn't a Die Hard fan and knows the gun laws.

OP I'm sorry you had to go through this. I'm a OCer and I've always had proffessional run ins with LEO's. Alot of times it makes a good converstation between us.

 

[T-rav]

Maybe you should make a youtube video telling your story, might put some pressure on FWPD if enough people see it and see that your a average guy standing up for his rights, heck you might even get some donations for legal fees.

What ever happens. I respect you standing up for your rights.

I think this is a great idea! Maybe get soem INGO members in the back ground. I live here up here. Im one.

What if people in Fort Wayne started carrying rifles instead? No license needed for that, so no reason to detain and check. Exercising your rights is NOT reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

Right?

How about we all get together this summer and do that? I'd be up for that... I hate a**holes with badges (as opposed to most cops), and think this would open their eyes to what might happen if they don't stop hassling people.

This was done down in Indy last summer I think? I know it was done just cant recall when. The key is for it not to be a protest just a casual walk through the streets.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

I wrote it in another thread and I'll write it here, too.

I have a conference call With C-o-P Rusty York and someone from Internal Affairs tomorrow (3-16-2010) to gather the official stance of the FWPD toward OC'ers. The Chief wasn't available today since I called after 4 p.m., so the lady (secretary?) that answered the telephone and took my message sounded like she had stepped in dog doodoo (holding her nose) when I described what I was requesting from the Chief.

Oh, well...