Man arrested in 'Call of Duty' 'swatting' hoax that led to fatal police shooting

[printcraft]

I would like to know more. Did SWAT show up in the middle of the night? How identifiable were they? If some dudes with guns showed up at my house at 1 a.m., but I couldn't identify them, I'm not sure how I would handle it, especially since I know I had no reason for anyone to be there at that time of night. Bad, bad, bad all around.

 

[KellyinAvon]

This reminds me of when the homeowner who'd called 911 ends up getting shot by Police because he was outside with a gun. LEOs think he's the bad guy, the guy who gets shot isn't, but doesn't know the LEO thinks he is the bad guy. If you're not the bad guy you think the LEO knows this, with tragic results.

 

[Sylvain]

None of that matters. Speaking generally, there's good decision making and bad decision making. Whether someone has military equipment, or training in military tactics makes no difference.

As someone who lives in an area where the local law enforcement agency is actually a military force (camo uniforms, full-auto guns, armored vehicles and military training); I concur.

Give a good cop a freaking tank and he will still be a good cop, respect your constitutional rights and be professional.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

But I can also see how military experience might make a difference in decision-making, especially if it means being deployed someplace with very different rules, for a significant time during their young life. If someone spent years in a place similar to Fallujah, playing by "Fallujah rules," it's absolutely possible that can affect decision-making, in ways you think you can train around, but which the actual effectiveness might be hard to measure.

The military doesn't have the same set of rules in every engagement. Military training and combat experience, absent PTSD or the like, is actually a benefit to decision making under stress. The physical reaction is more subdued, because lizard brain says "we've done this and not died, we're cool" and doesn't try to hi-jack the monkey brain or human brain. You still get the adrenaline cocktail, but the physical effects aren't as pronounced (heart rate isn't as high, etc.) because you're used to it. The skills you need to execute as far as weapon handling, use of cover, threat assessment, etc. are honed and can be executed subconsciously, further freeing up human brain for decision making.

In short, when you've BTDT, you're significantly more likely to use fear and the physical/mental reactions to it effectively than you are to panic. Panic leads to lizard brain taking over, and a very primal level of decision making which is entirely survival based takes over. Well trained and stress inoculated individuals make better decisions.

 

[Thor]

Military training and combat experience, absent PTSD or the like, is actually a benefit to decision making under stress. .

The Airlines know this...it's why it's so hard to keep pilots in the military when they are hiring. Military pilots actually look outside the cockpit and tend to take a deep breath and assess the situation instead of retreating into the checklist. Checklists have their place but they should not overshadow the ability to fly.

 

[Twangbanger]

The military doesn't have the same set of rules in every engagement. Military training and combat experience, absent PTSD or the like, is actually a benefit to decision making under stress. The physical reaction is more subdued, because lizard brain says "we've done this and not died, we're cool" and doesn't try to hi-jack the monkey brain or human brain. You still get the adrenaline cocktail, but the physical effects aren't as pronounced (heart rate isn't as high, etc.) because you're used to it. The skills you need to execute as far as weapon handling, use of cover, threat assessment, etc. are honed and can be executed subconsciously, further freeing up human brain for decision making.

In short, when you've BTDT, you're significantly more likely to use fear and the physical/mental reactions to it effectively than you are to panic. Panic leads to lizard brain taking over, and a very primal level of decision making which is entirely survival based takes over. Well trained and stress inoculated individuals make better decisions.

This makes sense to me, that having had some kind of stressful back-story could result in better decisions under duress. (Apparently the officer in the Shaver case needed something more in the way of experience than being an LDS missionary). What I would wonder, is if all kinds of experience are created equal? We want good decision-making, but in this scenario, we are talking about the definition of success being an officer making the choice that results in some marginal amount of *more* risk to himself, not less.

​

If you've been in an environment where death is literally expected around every corner, and being quick to take the shot (and having done it) partially factors into why you think you're still alive, is that the same kind of stress-inoculation as every other kind?

 

[Suavedom]

horrible

 

[churchmouse]

How anyone of a right mind could think this is something that will end well.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This makes sense to me, that having had some kind of stressful back-story could result in better decisions under duress. (Apparently the officer in the Shaver case needed something more in the way of experience than being an LDS missionary). What I would wonder, is if all kinds of experience are created equal? We want good decision-making, but in this scenario, we are talking about the definition of success being an officer making the choice that results in some marginal amount of *more* risk to himself, not less.

​

If you've been in an environment where death is literally expected around every corner, and being quick to take the shot (and having done it) partially factors into why you think you're still alive, is that the same kind of stress-inoculation as every other kind?

How much risk should the officers accept? If you wait to see the gun when someone makes a presentation like that, the only thing that determines your survival is their marksmanship. You simply can't react quickly enough, nor can your forebrain work that fast. It *is* going to be a subconscious response. People who have realistic and relevant training can simply make those decisions faster and process information faster.

Honestly, it's not the sort of thing you can distill down into a forum post. I've quite literally read dozens of books on the topic and, of course, have experienced it. I'm still learning. Decision making and behavioral economics are fascinating (to me anyway) and once you understand how your brain operates and how you can tune it, the result is better decision making. Realistic training, vicarious experience, and personal experience all factor in. To answer if all is equal, no.

Also, duress is when someone is forcing you to do something by threat. While I can kinda-sorta see the argument the person forced the officer's hand, I don't think that's the right term for this discussion. Under stress or survival stress is more appropriate.

 

[Tanfodude]

Wait, this doesn't make sense. The caller is from CA.0Ddid he make the call in CA or in Kansas? Wouldn't 911 operators know something was off if the given address is in KS if the call is in CA?

I've been gaming online for a long time and none of the people I talked to knows where I am or who my real name is. Unless these are old acquaintances.

 

[churchmouse]

Wait, this doesn't make sense. The caller is from CA.0Ddid he make the call in CA or in Kansas? Wouldn't 911 operators know something was off if the given address is in KS if the call is in CA?

I've been gaming online for a long time and none of the people I talked to knows where I am or who my real name is. Unless these are old acquaintances.

He sent them to the wrong house yes...???

 

[MCgrease08]

Wait, this doesn't make sense. The caller is from CA.0Ddid he make the call in CA or in Kansas? Wouldn't 911 operators know something was off if the given address is in KS if the call is in CA?

I've been gaming online for a long time and none of the people I talked to knows where I am or who my real name is. Unless these are old acquaintances.

Not that difficult to use a computer to spoof a number and make a call seem local. I wouldn't know how to do it, but I know it can be done.

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

There's probably quite a bit. I don't know about you, but at least to me, there seems to be a lot of people getting shot who were "reaching for their waistband" but found not to have a firearm. It's gotten to the point that when I hear that, I'm automatically skeptical.

This. "He appeared to reach for his waistband " is starting to get a little bit old. I understood the decision making process is complicated, and I understand that stress plays a huge factor. But enough.

 

[Sylvain]

Wait, this doesn't make sense. The caller is from CA.0Ddid he make the call in CA or in Kansas? Wouldn't 911 operators know something was off if the given address is in KS if the call is in CA?

I've been gaming online for a long time and none of the people I talked to knows where I am or who my real name is. Unless these are old acquaintances.

Not necessarily.
The caller can call his local 911 in CA and say "I was on the phone talking to by buddy in CA and he just told me he shot someone and took hostages here's his address in KS".
Then the 911 operator in CA would contact the local PD in KS.
Because the caller is not from the same state doesn't mean it's not legit.

The caller doesn't have to be local for 911 to repsond to a call.
The call doesn't even have to come from within the US.
I've read a story about two friends chatting over Skype, one was in Europe and one in the US.
The guy in the US collapsed during the call and his friend in Europe managed to call his friend's local emergency services and they sent an ambulance to his home.
Obviously overseas you can't just dial "911" but you can directly call any PD in the US.

 

[Knight Rider]

This. "He appeared to reach for his waistband " is starting to get a little bit old. I understood the decision making process is complicated, and I understand that stress plays a huge factor. But enough.

Local PD is blaming the caller. Might as well blame the officer’s gun as well. Justified or not, the responsibility in every shooting death remains with the shooter absent a weapons malfunction.

 

[churchmouse]

OK. Lets review. They have this guy completely covered. No escape possible or so it seems. He reaches. OK......they have him covered, did he produce a weapon of any kind. I have not viewed this video I am just saying. How long does it take to pull a weapon and get it on point. A trained individual can do it quickly enough but they had him covered. Completely.
I was not there. I have no idea how tense this was. I am not the officer that shot this man. I do not know this officer. I am just asking about the variables.
It does seem this is happening with regularity.

 

[Joniki]

I honestly can't tell after seeing that video. I do see him kinda a turn though. Here's my issue. Assuming the officer that shot the guy is the one we're given the perspective of the body cam, it is my opinion, that you can give a little bit more leeway in determining the intentions of the suspect, and whether or not he actually has a firearm. I've always disliked the disregarding everything in favor of the employing deadly force over a "might." IMO, that's one of the basic duties of LE... placing yourself potentially in harms way, to settle something peacefully. I think most officers observe this, as there have been plenty of times throughout an officer career that they could have employed deadly force, justifiably, but were able to avoid tragedy by some other means.

^^^^ This...

 

[LP1]

Considering that the police had been told that a hostage situation was in progress, they were probably going to come in anyway.

Why didn't the 911 operator look at the caller's number and ask why they were calling from a CA phone? There might be legit reasons for a CA phone to be calling about a situation in KS, but couldn't this information at least give dispatch and the responders the opportunity to consider the possibility of a prank?

 

[Denny347]

OK. Lets review. They have this guy completely covered. No escape possible or so it seems. He reaches. OK......they have him covered, did he produce a weapon of any kind. I have not viewed this video I am just saying. How long does it take to pull a weapon and get it on point. A trained individual can do it quickly enough but they had him covered. Completely.
I was not there. I have no idea how tense this was. I am not the officer that shot this man. I do not know this officer. I am just asking about the variables.
It does seem this is happening with regularity.

To answer that, action beats reaction every time. As a drill during my combatives instructor school we use 2 instructors. Both standing, facing each other. One will have his finger pointed like a gun, aimed at the "bad guy". This simulates an officer pointing their gun at a person. The "bad guy" points his finger like a gun and keeps it down at his side. The officer will then say "bang" when he sees the gun come up, I mean he already has the gun pointed at him right? I've never seen the good guy say bang BEFORE the bad guy was able to bring up his and say bang first. It was eye opening for me. If the bad guy in concealed, it will likely be a 50/50 shootout at best. Most of the time, police operate right of bang. The trick is to get left of bang. I'm not speaking about this particular incident, just addressing the posed question.

 

[Old Dog]

So ... the police shoot you for moving your hand towards your waist? Pre-emptive strike-fear-or over ambition? What's wrong with waiting until you actually SEE a GUN? Terrible incident all around. Prankster should be tried for manslaughter at minimum. Officer... well there should be some repercussions for all involved.