Man shot at Lt. Allen's funeral

[Kirk Freeman]

INGOer drops knowledge, not a CohenIG M320: View From The Porch: Sometimes it really is just dumb bad luck...

 

[actaeon277]

That's hilarious when someone invokes "Indiana state code" and clearly is either fabricating or repeating something they "think they remember hearing or reading somewhere" with no awareness of how stupid they sound or how easy it is to verify.

Did anyone call them out on it?

'
I don't think my blood pressure could take it.

 

[freekforge]

That's hilarious when someone invokes "Indiana state code" and clearly is either fabricating or repeating something they "think they remember hearing or reading somewhere" with no awareness of how stupid they sound or how easy it is to verify.

Did anyone call them out on it?

yours truly did. spent about 30min of my life edumacatin them folks. Im not positive but i imagine i would be in some hot water if i went on patrol without a round chambered. I also actually took a picture of the code books we keep at the station just to show her its not "indiana state code" as well just because im a "petty jerk".

 

[actaeon277]

Dang it freek. You're going to make me look, aren't you?

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Dang it freek. You're going to make me look, aren't you?

It is just Indiana Code. No "state" in the title.

 

[JAL]

I think the definition of the word reasonable must mean different things to different people. Here's what I found and how I interpret the word:

rea·son·a·ble
ˈrēz(ə)nəb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: reasonable

• 1.
  (of a person) having sound judgment; fair and sensible.
  "no reasonable person could have objected"
  

  synonyms:

  sensible, rational, logical, fair, fair-minded, just, equitable; Moreintelligent, wise, levelheaded, practical, realistic; sound, reasoned, well reasoned, valid, commonsensical; tenable, plausible, credible, believable "a reasonable man"

  • based on good sense.
    "it seems a reasonable enough request"
  • archaic
    (of a person or animal) able to think, understand, or form judgments by a logical process.
    "man is by nature reasonable"
• 2.
  as much as is appropriate or fair; moderate.
  "a police officer may use reasonable force to gain entry"
  

  synonyms:

  within reason, practicable, sensible; More

Thank God this country allows for a jury of one's peers. I wouldn't want anyone who had not spent time wearing a police uniform on the jury for the six month discussion on what is or is not reasonable. I can understand how anyone who hasn't would not understand why a police officer would not spend every waking moment of their day concerned that some foreign object might find its way not only into the holster, but inside of the trigger guard of their weapon. Especially when considering the frequency with which this very specific set of circumstances occurs. It's mind boggling that this officer had not checked that nothing had found its way inside of his holster at least three dozen times between the time he sat down and the time he stood up, I mean, how very negligent.

It's not how you interpret "reasonable", it's how the law defines "reasonable". That . . . in terms of a civil or criminal trial . . . the presiding judge would define, NOT the Webster's Third New International Dictionary, or any other one you choose. You've ignored the requirement for "Due Care" and what constitutes that increases with the severity of potential consequences for not exerting Due Care under the circumstances. The due care required in carrying a loaded and chambered firearm that's cocked with no safety beyond the trigger, is far, far, far greater than the due care required in carrying a can of mace, or a Taser. If you're not thinking about how to prevent inadvertently wounding or killing someone with your pistol every single day, you've become dangerously complacent.

An unintentional pistol discharge is negligence. I don't know how much more forcefully I can state it. There's no two ways about it. The sole question becomes whose negligence and if that negligence rises to gross negligence or a wanton and willful act and if it's a criminal act.

The potential consequence of an unintentional discharge of a firearm is someone's death. I do not know how much more severe that can get, other than causing multiple deaths or hundreds of deaths. Do we excuse that with: "Oops, it was an accident, we didn't mean it!", pay the victim's family $250k or so because that's what a human life is worth and tell them to just suck it up, and if the decedent didn't have life insurance that's your problem not ours, that this is the price we pay as a society, by necessity, to have armed law enforcement? Who's the "we" and how fairly is that cost spread? A buck or less a head for everyone in a city the size of Indianapolis . . . except for the deceased's family . . . who pay an unthinkably gargantuan price that no amount of money can remedy?

Giving a "pass" on this one with no action whatsoever promotes complacency, and complacency with carrying very lethal weapons that can potentially discharge unintentionally will ultimately lead to wrongful injuries and deaths. It's not a matter of if, but when, and how often these injuries and deaths occur. In this case there is, without any doubt whatsoever, a wrongful injury and by definition of being wrongful, someone negligently caused it, and is therefore responsible and culpable. If you think it isn't a wrongful injury, then please explain to me how the woman who was shot contributed by her own negligence in being shot, or worse yet, deserved to be shot. There is no force majeure.

As I stated earlier, I conducted official investigations of numerous incidents for potential negligence. A good number of them involved loss of government property, and injuries or death, and not just a few. I did it as a commissioned officer in the United States Army under the authority of Title 10, United States Code and the Army's relevant regulations. Only Officers of the United States are empowered to conduct said investigations (and if you don't know what an Officer of the United States is, Google is your friend). I can tell you, unequivocally, without any doubt whatsoever in my 20-1/2 year commissioned experience military mind that an incident like this would not fly so much as a single millimeter as anything but negligence. I can also assure you that any commanding officer of any unit in which such an incident like this occurred wouldn't be just disturbed or upset or even angry. He'd be absolutely, positively livid. I personally saw unintentional incidents . . . albeit not involving small arms weapons . . . that caused serious injury or death, and the consequences were Wrath of God magnitude, even for "simple" negligence. Early in one's career these reactions can seem shocking, but as it progresses one realizes it's the only way to combat and eradicate complacency around weapons and equipment that can very easily kill people.

One of my father's common phrases: "Familiarity breeds contempt." I can still hear him saying it, 35 years after his passing. I have a corollary: "Complacency breeds contempt." Complacency in this incident, will result in contempt for due care, and history, very sadly will be doomed to repeat itself.

John

 

[Roland of Gilead]

 

[phylodog]

It's not how you interpret "reasonable", it's how the law defines "reasonable". That . . . in terms of a civil or criminal trial . . . the presiding judge would define, NOT the Webster's Third New International Dictionary, or any other one you choose. You've ignored the requirement for "Due Care" and what constitutes that increases with the severity of potential consequences for not exerting Due Care under the circumstances. The due care required in carrying a loaded and chambered firearm that's cocked with no safety beyond the trigger, is far, far, far greater than the due care required in carrying a can of mace, or a Taser. If you're not thinking about how to prevent inadvertently wounding or killing someone with your pistol every single day, you've become dangerously complacent.

An unintentional pistol discharge is negligence. I don't know how much more forcefully I can state it. There's no two ways about it. The sole question becomes whose negligence and if that negligence rises to gross negligence or a wanton and willful act and if it's a criminal act.

The potential consequence of an unintentional discharge of a firearm is someone's death. I do not know how much more severe that can get, other than causing multiple deaths or hundreds of deaths. Do we excuse that with: "Oops, it was an accident, we didn't mean it!", pay the victim's family $250k or so because that's what a human life is worth and tell them to just suck it up, and if the decedent didn't have life insurance that's your problem not ours, that this is the price we pay as a society, by necessity, to have armed law enforcement? Who's the "we" and how fairly is that cost spread? A buck or less a head for everyone in a city the size of Indianapolis . . . except for the deceased's family . . . who pay an unthinkably gargantuan price that no amount of money can remedy?

Giving a "pass" on this one with no action whatsoever promotes complacency, and complacency with carrying very lethal weapons that can potentially discharge unintentionally will ultimately lead to wrongful injuries and deaths. It's not a matter of if, but when, and how often these injuries and deaths occur. In this case there is, without any doubt whatsoever, a wrongful injury and by definition of being wrongful, someone negligently caused it, and is therefore responsible and culpable. If you think it isn't a wrongful injury, then please explain to me how the woman who was shot contributed by her own negligence in being shot, or worse yet, deserved to be shot. There is no force majeure.

As I stated earlier, I conducted official investigations of numerous incidents for potential negligence. A good number of them involved loss of government property, and injuries or death, and not just a few. I did it as a commissioned officer in the United States Army under the authority of Title 10, United States Code and the Army's relevant regulations. Only Officers of the United States are empowered to conduct said investigations (and if you don't know what an Officer of the United States is, Google is your friend). I can tell you, unequivocally, without any doubt whatsoever in my 20-1/2 year commissioned experience military mind that an incident like this would not fly so much as a single millimeter as anything but negligence. I can also assure you that any commanding officer of any unit in which such an incident like this occurred wouldn't be just disturbed or upset or even angry. He'd be absolutely, positively livid. I personally saw unintentional incidents . . . albeit not involving small arms weapons . . . that caused serious injury or death, and the consequences were Wrath of God magnitude, even for "simple" negligence. Early in one's career these reactions can seem shocking, but as it progresses one realizes it's the only way to combat and eradicate complacency around weapons and equipment that can very easily kill people.

Thanks for your service John, I served in the Army myself. FYI -a Glock is not cocked until someone pulls the trigger and the safety on the trigger is but one of three total safeties on the pistol, the other two being internal. Since I served in the Army as well I'm familiar with the differences between the US military and the rest of society. Attempting to apply military "logic" to the civilian world is never going to work out here in the real world where the government doesn't own the citizens. I understand that we can't be too bothered by facts, they might get in the way of our lust for blood or our attempts to justify our existence.

Perhaps, if the law can have a completely different definition for words than the rest of the world it needs an overhaul. I'd like someone to explain how the word can have an entirely different meaning in criminal law than it does in civil. Forgive me for my lack of tolerance for bull**** but if it takes a seven paragraph dissertation to convince people that someone must be blamed for something bad that happened, its intellectually dishonest. Sorry but your position is not reasonable and there is no possible corrective action for what occurred here that would be either. Much like the beyond ridiculous lawsuits we've all heard about, reviewing the facts in this incident and coming to the conclusion that someone was negligent and something must change is ridiculous. Using your logic, McDonald's should serve coffee inside of a quadruple walled stainless steel vessel with a welded lid and three stage cooling system built in so that the possibility of someone being burned becomes impossible. Perhaps that makes sense in your world, it doesn't in mine.

One of my father's common phrases: "Familiarity breeds contempt." I can still hear him saying it, 35 years after his passing. I have a corollary: "Complacency breeds contempt." Complacency in this incident, will result in contempt for due care, and history, very sadly will be doomed to repeat itself.

John

I'll wait here for this to happen again, let me know if it does in case I miss it. By my calculations (which are as conservative as conservative gets) this incident was a 1/998,400,000 occurrence, pretty sure time is on my side.

 

[rhino]

'
I don't think my blood pressure could take it.

Hothead! Are you able to use your fury to melt steel at the mill? I assume that's how you do it, since fire won't work (Rosie O'Donnell said so).

yours truly did. spent about 30min of my life edumacatin them folks. Im not positive but i imagine i would be in some hot water if i went on patrol without a round chambered. I also actually took a picture of the code books we keep at the station just to show her its not "indiana state code" as well just because im a "petty jerk".

I commend your effort. Of course, no good deed goes unpunished.

How will you ever go on in life bearing the burden of being called "petty jerk" by someone on the Facebook??

It is just Indiana Code. No "state" in the title.

Hush, you! Don't confuse the issue with logic and facts!

 

[indiucky]

Come hang out with us dinosaurs with hammers on our guns.

BBI's new rigs.....

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I can also assure you that any commanding officer of any unit in which such an incident like this occurred wouldn't be just disturbed or upset or even angry. He'd be absolutely, positively livid.

Because his career just got shot as well. The CO is blamed if Pvt. Snuffy has an AD or if a ship runs aground, even if the CO was asleep or fifteen miles away because military reasoning. This isn't the military, and we don't have to burn someone at the stake of "negligence" to assure ourselves that all is right with the world.

 

[MarkC]

Because his career just got shot as well. The CO is blamed if Pvt. Snuffy has an AD or if a ship runs aground, even if the CO was asleep or fifteen miles away because military reasoning. This isn't the military, and we don't have to burn someone at the stake of "negligence" to assure ourselves that all is right with the world.

This is absolutely true. The CO might suffer sudden career death, such as being relieved, if the negative event was bad enough. Or, even worse, the commander might suffer the slow death of getting a negative action, such as a letter of admonition or letter of reprimand placed in his file, which will haunt the rest of his career and make him non-competitive for later promotions.

Unfortunately, this is exactly the consequences which has made our military officers so micromanaging and completely risk-averse.

 

[actaeon277]

Hothead! Are you able to use your fury to melt steel at the mill? I assume that's how you do it, since fire won't work (Rosie O'Donnell said so).

Don't even get me started.

 

[rhino]

Don't even get me started.

 

[actaeon277]

We work hard.
We play hard.

[video=youtube;-uOBveFKdGs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uOBveFKdGs[/video]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

We work hard.
We play hard.

[video=youtube;-uOBveFKdGs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uOBveFKdGs[/video]

Stupid rep nazis...

 

[IndyTom]

BBI's new rigs.....

I nearly fell over laughing. Had to show my son. Much rep deserved, none available.

 

[actaeon277]

Stupid rep nazis...

 

[sporter]

Just wondering if any more pistols 'went off' in their holster today?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Just wondering if any more pistols 'went off' in their holster today?

Likely: Moses Lake police: deputy accidentally shot wife while handling firearm | Columbia Basin | ifiberone.com