Michigan air show plane crash

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  • Cameramonkey

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    I wonder how many owners that Mig23 had? How do you have traceability on that? Forget about it. That plane looked like it was in somewhat controlled stable flight when they punched. I'll be interested to hear the story, if any, but that looked like a straight-up major system failure, and they were lucky enough to identify it before it became critical.

    Very lucky nobody was killed.
    FIFY. Just because it appears stable, doesnt mean nothing is wrong. For all we know They saw hydraulic pressure drop to zero and/or or they could have been wildly trying to move controls and the plane wasnt responding. Kinda like in the movies when a brake line is cut and the character is wildly and repeatedly stomping on the brake pedal but the car is still moving forward at full speed.

    Or there was a spider in the cockpit. :):
     

    Ark

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    FIFY. Just because it appears stable, doesnt mean nothing is wrong. For all we know They saw hydraulic pressure drop to zero and/or or they could have been wildly trying to move controls and the plane wasnt responding. Kinda like in the movies when a brake line is cut and the character is wildly and repeatedly stomping on the brake pedal but the car is still moving forward at full speed.

    Or there was a spider in the cockpit. :):
    Got acquired by a nearby CIWS
     

    Basher

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    If Dan Gryder puts up a video about this, so help me God… I can’t stand that douche.

    Glad everyone made it out. I don’t comment on recent accidents. I may be a pilot, but an NTSB investigator I am not, and I wasn’t present in the cockpit when their emergency surfaced. Too many people are too quick to start laying blame when they have a dang near negative budget of aviation knowledge lol.
     

    DragonGunner

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    If Dan Gryder puts up a video about this, so help me God… I can’t stand that douche.

    Glad everyone made it out. I don’t comment on recent accidents. I may be a pilot, but an NTSB investigator I am not, and I wasn’t present in the cockpit when their emergency surfaced. Too many people are too quick to start laying blame when they have a dang near negative budget of aviation knowledge lol.
    Then don’t watch it.
     

    Twangbanger

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    If Dan Gryder puts up a video about this, so help me God… I can’t stand that douche.

    Glad everyone made it out. I don’t comment on recent accidents. I may be a pilot, but an NTSB investigator I am not, and I wasn’t present in the cockpit when their emergency surfaced. Too many people are too quick to start laying blame when they have a dang near negative budget of aviation knowledge lol.
    May be, but people with the positive budget of aviation knowledge are raining down hulls on the countryside at the rate of multiples per week. The public doesn't need to be an expert to be concerned and have an opinion about this. The community looks bad, and eventually the public gets the impression they're relying on luck and "something needs to be done." Once you're out of the plane, the only thing keeping it from hitting a school full of children is pure random chance. It may not have been the "pilot's fault," but they're not just responsible for working the controls of the plane. The decision to operate it in the first place is also a choice that is made. Travel and commercial use is a public benefit that the public agrees to accept a certain amount of risk to gain. "I've got this cool old warbird and I love flying it at shows" is something different.

    There really isn't a general public benefit to guys operating their toys on weekends. There is a growing perception that community isn't "owning their responsibility."
     

    Basher

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    Then don’t watch it.
    I don’t. Whether or not I watch it doesn’t change the fact that he’s an ass that I then have to deal with second-hand when the general public asks me questions prompted by his idiocy.

    Anyway, this isn’t a thread about Gryder, so I’ll leave it at that.
     

    Ark

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    May be, but people with the positive budget of aviation knowledge are raining down hulls on the countryside at the rate of multiples per week. The public doesn't need to be an expert to be concerned and have an opinion about this. The community looks bad, and eventually the public gets the impression they're relying on luck and "something needs to be done." Once you're out of the plane, the only thing keeping it from hitting a school full of children is pure random chance. It may not have been the "pilot's fault," but they're not just responsible for working the controls of the plane. The decision to operate it in the first place is also a choice that is made. Travel and commercial use is a public benefit that the public agrees to accept a certain amount of risk to gain. "I've got this cool old warbird and I love flying it at shows" is something different.

    There really isn't a general public benefit to guys operating their toys on weekends. There is a growing perception that community isn't "owning their responsibility."
    It's a free country and nobody needs to demonstrate a "general public benefit" to operating their own aircraft on their own dime.
     

    Twangbanger

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    It's a free country and nobody needs to demonstrate a "general public benefit" to operating their own aircraft on their own dime.
    But they are regulated by the FAA also, and ultimately how much regulation they have to put up with will be influenced by public perception. If the public doesn't think the risk is worth the benefit, the "weekend guys" will eventually feel it.
     

    Basher

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    But they are regulated by the FAA also, and ultimately how much regulation they have to put up with will be influenced by public perception. If the public doesn't think the risk is worth the benefit, the "weekend guys" will eventually feel it.

    And guess who issued the special airworthiness certificate needed to operate that Mig-23? The FAA. So if they issued a permit, they must have felt it was in good enough condition to be airworthy.

    Please, tell me more about how aviation works, including the inspection and certification of experimental aircraft and the necessary documents needed to obtain a Experimental Category special airworthiness certificate…

    Edit: as an added note, the average age of a general aviation aircraft is 50 years old. Are you one of those people who feels anything older than 20 years should be scrapped? Do you have any idea what a NEW general aviation aircraft costs? This is why most new aircraft cost more than a house nowadays, because of the extreme amount of regulation that must be complied with to produce them. Very few people are approaching aviation maintenance with the cavalier attitude you seem to think we all have…
     

    KellyinAvon

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    No link/heard it on the radio: a witness stated the engine sucked up a bird. Single engine aircraft. (US swept-wing aircraft) F-111 and F-14 had at two engines. The B-1B has four.
     

    DragonGunner

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    I don’t. Whether or not I watch it doesn’t change the fact that he’s an ass that I then have to deal with second-hand when the general public asks me questions prompted by his idiocy.

    Anyway, this isn’t a thread about Gryder, so I’ll leave it at that.
    Yes but you brought it up. The guy is a pilot and has called out the experts numerous times when they got something wrong. He is also big on safety, and has helped. He has even turned guys that hated his guts into friends and Allie’s in the cause. He has every right to his speech so if you hate him so much too bad.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    And guess who issued the special airworthiness certificate needed to operate that Mig-23? The FAA. So if they issued a permit, they must have felt it was in good enough condition to be airworthy.

    Please, tell me more about how aviation works, including the inspection and certification of experimental aircraft and the necessary documents needed to obtain a Experimental Category special airworthiness certificate…

    Edit: as an added note, the average age of a general aviation aircraft is 50 years old. Are you one of those people who feels anything older than 20 years should be scrapped? Do you have any idea what a NEW general aviation aircraft costs? This is why most new aircraft cost more than a house nowadays, because of the extreme amount of regulation that must be complied with to produce them. Very few people are approaching aviation maintenance with the cavalier attitude you seem to think we all have…
    Part of the reason is the ridiculous nature of tort law. The "sue everybody and hope somebody pays to make you go away" tactic is partly to blame. Its flat out extortion for truly unrelated parties.

    Case in point: Small aircraft throws a rod all the way out the cowling and makes a hole. Pilot fails to take correct actions and crashes. He radioed what happened, and NTSB confirmed it after the crash. Here comes the lawsuit. Parties:
    Cessna- aircraft manufacturer. Kinda makes sense.
    Lycoming- engine manufacturer. Makes sense
    Shell- oil in the engine. Sketch
    Fram- filter on the engine. sketch
    Then the ridiculous:
    Goodyear- tires and door gaskets on the plane.
    Rapco- wheel brakes
    Garmin- GPS mounted in plane
    Osram- light bulbs on the plane
    etc

    That ridiculousness is part of what makes the parts insanely expensive. Like $50 for a light bulb that is identical to the one you put in your car that costs you $4.
     

    Basher

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    Yes but you brought it up. The guy is a pilot and has called out the experts numerous times when they got something wrong. He is also big on safety, and has helped. He has even turned guys that hated his guts into friends and Allie’s in the cause. He has every right to his speech so if you hate him so much too bad.
    Dan has every right to open his mouth and make himself look like the ass he is, absolutely…

    I’m not replying to another Gryder comment, the guy doesn’t deserve my time. Yes, I brought him up and I now regret that, as apparently we have a few folks who worship at his alter here. People who don’t know or work in this industry lap his sh*t up and worship him like a god because the internet gave him a platform where he can run his mouth. I’ve yet to meet even ONE pilot, A&P, or IA who has anything positive to say about him, and I know several people who eat, sleep, and breath aviation in all aspects of the industry. That says something to me.

    Enjoy Gryder’s hot air if you want. I choose not to endure his drivel. Good day.
     

    Shadow01

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    And guess who issued the special airworthiness certificate needed to operate that Mig-23? The FAA. So if they issued a permit, they must have felt it was in good enough condition to be airworthy.

    Please, tell me more about how aviation works, including the inspection and certification of experimental aircraft and the necessary documents needed to obtain a Experimental Category special airworthiness certificate…

    Edit: as an added note, the average age of a general aviation aircraft is 50 years old. Are you one of those people who feels anything older than 20 years should be scrapped? Do you have any idea what a NEW general aviation aircraft costs? This is why most new aircraft cost more than a house nowadays, because of the extreme amount of regulation that must be complied with to produce them. Very few people are approaching aviation maintenance with the cavalier attitude you seem to think we all have…
    so the FAA has never signed off on an aircraft that had “doctored” documents of it’s airworthiness?
     

    Basher

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    I

    so the FAA has never signed off on an aircraft that had “doctored” documents of it’s airworthiness?

    Earlier I said I don’t comment on my thoughts re: recent accidents. This is why. One post says a possible bird strike/ingestion, an event which often results in catastrophic damage to an aircraft and has NOTHING to do with how well an aircraft is maintained. Others question whether older aircraft should even be allowed to fly. Yet another suggests the maintenance program and those leading it may be cooking the books.

    Nobody knows what happened yet. If it’s proven to be a bird strike, then all these other posts are pointless guesses. I prefer not to put myself out like that (unlike others I’ve mentioned above). I was not present in any way, either in the cockpit or on the ground, to have any say.

    I’m not playing the what-if game. Maybe in 6-12months when an NTSB report is issued, we can all come back and argue over pointless suggestions again…
     

    Shadow01

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    Earlier I said I don’t comment on my thoughts re: recent accidents. This is why. One post says a possible bird strike/ingestion, an event which often results in catastrophic damage to an aircraft and has NOTHING to do with how well an aircraft is maintained. Others question whether older aircraft should even be allowed to fly. Yet another suggests the maintenance program and those leading it may be cooking the books.

    Nobody knows what happened yet. If it’s proven to be a bird strike, then all these other posts are pointless guesses. I prefer not to put myself out like that (unlike others I’ve mentioned above). I was not present in any way, either in the cockpit or on the ground, to have any say.

    I’m not playing the what-if game. Maybe in 6-12months when an NTSB report is issued, we can all come back and argue over pointless suggestions again…
    Oh, I agree. I was only looking at the FAA from the certificate to fly aspect and I may have got the wrong impression reading your post. I never assume anything from a government agency is above board. Even if they‘re doing their job correctly, someone could be undermining the trust the agency projects. I guess I don’t see the certificate as having any valid weight until the investigation comes to a conclusion.
     

    Ark

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    ...but I can't let rounds go over my berm (is the pilot responsible for damages?)
    Yes, you are potentially liable in court if and when you do something stupid that inflicts demonstrable harm on other people. Freedom from prior restraint is not freedom from responsibility.

    In this case I presume the liable entity would not be the pilot, it would be whatever LLC owned and operated it or possibly the air show as a whole depending on how their respective insurance schemes work.
     
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