Michigan teenager shot during traffic stop

[T.Lex]

People driving with brights on has been a pet peeve of mine since I had gas permeable contacts in high school. The brights would create a bad corona effect in my vision and really **** me off.

If the bright-beam driver is behind me, I've even been known to adjust my rear view mirror so the light is reflected back at them. Been years since I've done that, though.

 

[T.Lex]

And then there's this:
Drivers warning others to 'slow down' not against the law | News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | WPBN

Drivers can't receive a ticket for flashing their lights at someone in Michigan, but they can still be pulled over if law enforcement think they are in violation of another law, or if they feel a person in the vehicle could be in danger.
"We are going to probably investigate the car further just to make sure that they're secure inside of the car," said Hall. "Because we don't know if they are flashing their high beams at us, or at somebody else."
State Police caution that if drivers want to flash their lights at someone to be careful when they do. They say that if you do it when you are too close to another car, it can startle the driver and could cause an accident.
Failing to turn your high beams off when you pass another car is against the law in Michigan. Michigan State Police report that they can pull you over for it, and they can write you a ticket.

 

[printcraft]

And then there's this:
Drivers warning others to 'slow down' not against the law | News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | WPBN

"We are going to probably investigate the car further just to make sure that they're secure inside of the car," said Hall. "Because we don't know if they are flashing their high beams at us, or at somebody else."

TRANSLATION: "It's not illegal..... but we're going to **** with you anyhow just because."

 

[17 squirrel]

As a younger man I had a K5 Blazed lifted up a few inches and a light bar on the roof with 5 KC Daylighters mounted on it.
4 were pointed forward and the center one facing backwards. When dealing with the drivers that would not turn off there high beams, I would flash my headlights and or brake lights twice. Nothing says turn your high beams off like 4 million candle power coming towards you, or a million candle power blinding you from the truck that you are following with your high beams on.

 

[scoutsniper]

Out of curiosity, do you feel anything for the family of the young man?

Why should he? Kid acted like a dumb**** and got treated like one. And parents raised said dumb**** so it's to be expected. I really don't see how this is a question? Or why people feel for the kid and or family?

 

[LP1]

The kid acted like a jackass and got treated like one , what's the problem ?

Being a jackass does not deserve the death penalty, and without a trial to boot.

If that was your child, would you feel the same way?

Yeah, the kid was stupid and didn't choose his battles wisely, and the video is vague (at best) regarding the scuffle. But it all could have been avoided with a little less aggressive approach.

I feel badly for all involved.

 

[HoughMade]

Ok. Found a couple IC cites:

IC 9-21-8-51 Blinding lights; failure to dim; Class B infraction Sec. 51. A person who: (1) operates a vehicle; and (2) fails to dim bright or blinding lights when meeting another vehicle or pedestrian; commits a Class B infraction.

IC 9-21-8-55 Aggressive driving Sec. 55. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement official engaged in the law enforcement official's official duties. (b) For purposes of this section, a person engages in aggressive driving if, during one (1) episode of continuous driving of a vehicle, the person does or commits at least three (3) of the following:
...
(9) Repeatedly flashing the vehicle's headlights.

All I'll say is that I flash to warn and have for a long time. Neither of these statutes cause me to reconsider the practice.

 

[Thor]

If my kid was punching an officer in the face (for a stupid traffic stop none the less) and got shot I'd feel bad, but I'd also understand.

 

[Rarejewell]

Ok. Found a couple IC cites:

IC 9-21-8-51 Blinding lights; failure to dim; Class B infraction Sec. 51. A person who: (1) operates a vehicle; and (2) fails to dim bright or blinding lights when meeting another vehicle or pedestrian; commits a Class B infraction.

IC 9-21-8-55 Aggressive driving Sec. 55. (a) This section does not apply to a law enforcement official engaged in the law enforcement official's official duties. (b) For purposes of this section, a person engages in aggressive driving if, during one (1) episode of continuous driving of a vehicle, the person does or commits at least three (3) of the following:
...
(9) Repeatedly flashing the vehicle's headlights.

If he repeatedly flashed his lights and none of the other acts, he is not an aggressive driver as a person has to do at least three of the behaviors. I admit that I have not yet watched the video but not everything that happens before during and after is usually recorded. Also flashing you brights to warn and remind is not repeatedly. Once time does not meet the definition.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[T.Lex]

I admit that I have not yet watched the video ..

Watch the vid, I humbly suggest.

It is true that the kid was not shot for flashing his brights.

It is also true that if the officer had not pulled the kid over for the non-offense, then the kid would not have been shot. At least not right then.

 

[Denny347]

I will never understand why so few leo's have training in hand to hand / Martial Art skills.
99.9% of the public can be brought to their knees very quickly with a few simple moves. And the situation is quickly and safely brought under control. And its a plus for the leo, he gets to avoid cuts, scrapes, ruined uniforms and his buddies busting on him in the locker room for letting a kid get the better of him. Plus he gets to hear a grown man squeel like a little girl when pressure is applied to the suspect. The public gennerally does not know how to fight or gain control of a souring situation. It's always a wrestling match. And it doesn't have to be one.
And sometimes the ending is bad, someone ends up being shot and it so easily could have been avoided on so many occasions.

State requires 40 hrs minimum (and that is what most usually get) and 0 hrs after graduation. Skills taught are quickly forgotten if not used. I happen to be one of our dept trainers for combatives. We used to teach over 200hrs about 6 years ago when I became an instructor and we are down to less than 80 currently. We have a "fight club" every week at the academy that is open to ANYONE willing to participate. Out of 1400 officers we get maybe 8-10 that participate and about half of those are fellow instructors. Now to be fair, some officers attend independent BJJ or Krav Maga gyms on their own. However, the numbers of officers who maintain fighting proficiency is low. Your question is 100% valid. It is a disgrace. Officers depend too much on the department to provide training and assume that if the training is not given, it must not be needed. It's a lazy way of thinking. I am also a firearms instructor and will admit that I don't get to the range as often as I should, outside of the bi-yearly training. I grapple twice a week on top of my 3-4 days at the gym. It is hard to fit it all in.

 

[Denny347]

This happened back in February; sorry if it's a dup, but the video just appeared on CNN:
Cop kicks phone out of teen's hand, shoots 7 times - CNN Video

So much went wrong here. Kid started out being polite, officer wouldn't listen, kid got a little stupid but not violent, officer overreacted (IMO), and it went downhill from there. Kid had apparently been coached, saying "why am I being detained", and it didn't go over well. Not sure why he wouldn't comply regarding license, etc., since the officer was in uniform. Then again, why would someone get pulled over just for flashing their brights? And tasing someone just for refusing to get out of their car instead of waiting for backup seems excessive and premature.

Lots of failure - I'd like to hear some opinions, especially from LE.

He was tased on the ground while refusing to place his arms behind his back. The young man made a conscious decision to attack the officer. While I would have likely handled the stop and conversation differently, it did not give the guy a right to beat the snot out of the officer. The officer is allowed to defend himself just as any other fellow CITIZEN (see what I did there) is. In fact, many here have publicly stated that they will shoot anyone who tries to punch them.

 

[17 squirrel]

State requires 40 hrs minimum (and that is what most usually get) and 0 hrs after graduation. Skills taught are quickly forgotten if not used. I happen to be one of our dept trainers for combatives. We used to teach over 200hrs about 6 years ago when I became an instructor and we are down to less than 80 currently. We have a "fight club" every week at the academy that is open to ANYONE willing to participate. Out of 1400 officers we get maybe 8-10 that participate and about half of those are fellow instructors. Now to be fair, some officers attend independent BJJ or Krav Maga gyms on their own. However, the numbers of officers who maintain fighting proficiency is low. Your question is 100% valid. It is a disgrace. Officers depend too much on the department to provide training and assume that if the training is not given, it must not be needed. It's a lazy way of thinking. I am also a firearms instructor and will admit that I don't get to the range as often as I should, outside of the bi-yearly training. I grapple twice a week on top of my 3-4 days at the gym. It is hard to fit it all in.

Very well said Sir. And it's so true. Sad but true.
One of the Alexandria City LEOs has a Judo class here in town. My son is a Second kyu in Okinawan Shorin-Ryu, when he is here he always goes to as many judo classes as he can, those kids twist his ass up but he always walks away with more knowledge than he came with. Sometimes the older students spar with him and he gets to give a few lessons as long as he's still standing.
I'll have to ask him if he's interested in grappling.. It's been a interesting journey watching him learn the last 10 years. Hopefully he will take it through his entire life.

And I almost forgot..You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Denny347 again.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Getting into a half assed fight with a cop is stupid. I do all kinds of dumb things, but even I know that if I start swinging on a cop while he is arresting me, he might shoot me.

It looked to me like the kid was the cause of his own death. Bad deal.

I often flash my lights to warn oncoming drivers to pay extra attention. Maybe I want to make sure they don't hit the deer that are standing next to the road, maybe it is because there is stopped traffic around the curve and I don't want them to slam into it. Maybe I don't want them to blunder into the cop parked around the corner running his radar. It's a free country and if an officer wants to pull me over for warning with my lights and we go to court, I pray it happens in Greene County because it will be awesome.

 

[foszoe]

I just have never equated protecting my rights with firm, assertive statements to making an ass of myself through becoming beligerent.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Being a jackass does not deserve the death penalty, and without a trial to boot.

If that was your child, would you feel the same way?

Yeah, the kid was stupid and didn't choose his battles wisely, and the video is vague (at best) regarding the scuffle. But it all could have been avoided with a little less aggressive approach.

I feel badly for all involved.

Kid or no kid if you attack an officer , you get what you get .

Stupid games , stupid prizes and all .

 

[HoughMade]

I just have never equated protecting my rights with firm, assertive statements to making an ass of myself through becoming beligerent.

You've been on INGO since 2011...I would have thought you would have made the switch by now.

 

[Denny347]

Being a jackass does not deserve the death penalty, and without a trial to boot.

If that was your child, would you feel the same way?

Yeah, the kid was stupid and didn't choose his battles wisely, and the video is vague (at best) regarding the scuffle. But it all could have been avoided with a little less aggressive approach.

I feel badly for all involved.

I do not understand this line of reasoning. The officer did not pull the kid over and then open fire on him as the punishment for it. This society LOVES to remove blame from the those who deserve it the most. Could the officer have dealt with the guy differently? Sure. However, the suspect made the deadly force decision for the officer when he decided to assault him.

 

[foszoe]

You've been on INGO since 2011...I would have thought you would have made the switch by now.

INGO has helped me become a more calm, rational, thoughtful and caring human being with only the best of intentions for all those that i encounter.

 

[Denny347]

INGO has helped me become a more calm, rational, thoughtful and caring human being with only the best of intentions for all those that i encounter.

Wait until you've been here for 7 years