Michigan teenager shot during traffic stop

[Frank_N_Stein]

Yes Frank, I see you. That's nice. I recognize that you are passive-aggressively calling me a 'tard...... Subtle. (well, ok your response is sort of amusing even if wrong) I think we both should sit this one out. If either one of us posted our true feelings on this one..... Well, I know MY feelings on this one would certainly get me banned. I'm sure you are adamant with the opposing view.

Don't start me talking, I'll tell everything I know.

Real patriots don't care about bans.

 

[17 squirrel]

Real patriots don't care about bans.

Are you a real patriot Frank ?

 

[KG1]

Yes Frank, I see you. That's nice. I recognize that you are passive-aggressively calling me a 'tard...... Subtle. (well, ok your response is sort of amusing even if wrong) I think we both should sit this one out. If either one of us posted our true feelings on this one..... Well, I know MY feelings on this one would certainly get me banned. I'm sure you are adamant with the opposing view.

Don't start me talking, I'll tell everything I know.

Start talking. We're not going anywhere.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Are you a real patriot Frank ?

I'm not the one with something to say.

 

[17 squirrel]

I'm not the one with something to say.

Hahahahaha... Very Good.

 

[CPT Nervous]

I don't know what video the rest of you watched but the one I saw clearly depicted a murder. I could easily defend that too but in another thread I made a comment about casting pearls before swine, so I better leave the rest of my opinions unsaid.

Yep, whenever I murder people, I wait until I'm on my back and they're punching me in the face. I bet you think George Zimmerman is a murderer, too, doncha?

The video is explicitly clear. Sure, the officer made some mistakes leading up to the shoot, but the moment he was attacked, deadly force was justified. It does look as if the TASER hit the officer, I don't see any other reason for him to fall like he did.

Where did you see a murder occur?

 

[foszoe]

After reading how people would be so hesitant to deploy deadly force, I am starting to wonder if people getting shot with their own guns results from being so calm, cool and collected while they are getting the crap beat out of them.

 

[17 squirrel]

Yep, whenever I murder people, I wait until I'm on my back and they're punching me in the face. I bet you think George Zimmerman is a murderer, too, doncha?

The video is explicitly clear. Sure, the officer made some mistakes leading up to the shoot, but the moment he was attacked, deadly force was justified. It does look as if the TASER hit the officer, I don't see any other reason for him to fall like he did.

Where did you see a murder occur?

Your own key words here, The Officer made some mistakes leading up to the shoot.. And that means with better training and if the Officer had made better decisions it never would have escalated to the end result.

And I'm quite certian I have seen more death and dispair than you Sir.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Your own key words here, The Officer made some mistakes leading up to the shoot.. And that means with better training and if the Officer had made better decisions it never would have escalated to the end result.

And I'm quite certian I have seen more death and dispair than you Sir.

I agree with you 100%. Your key word here is "if." If he had better training, if he made better decisions. The issue here is whether the shoot was justified, and I believe we both believe it was. I also believe that we both believe better training would have prevented a fatality here.

I never claimed you hadn't.

 

[17 squirrel]

After reading how people would be so hesitant to deploy deadly force, I am starting to wonder if people getting shot with their own guns results from being so calm, cool and collected while they are getting the crap beat out of them.

Why do you think deadly force is needed to end a beating ?
Do you think with better people skills with the Officer this would have escalated to where it went ?
Is there a time for the pistol ? Sure, but this wasn't it here. IMO

 

[17 squirrel]

I agree with you 100%. Your key word here is "if." If he had better training, if he made better decisions. The issue here is whether the shoot was justified, and I believe we both believe it was. I also believe that we both believe better training would have prevented a fatality here.

I never claimed you hadn't.

I'm sad to say, its the Officers responsibility to keep himself prepared for situations that tend to happen on the job. And rolling around in the street is one of those things that just comes along with the job in a patrol car or walking a beat. And this Officer couldn't handle a 19 year old man. If he would have practiced his basic Hand to hand skills, this never would have happened. This foolish young man would be alive, and a Officer would never have to live with what he did.
It seems all to often in today's world, that a Officer pulls out this pistol when its just not needed. A few punches is certainly better than living with killing someone.
And no I don't believe this shooting was justified.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Why do you think deadly force is needed to end a beating ?
Do you think with better people skills with the Officer this would have escalated to where it went ?
Is there a time for the pistol ? Sure, but this wasn't it here. IMO

It wouldn't have escalated to that point if the kid hadn't attacked the officer. I don't blame the officer for that. The kid made that decision himself.

Plenty of people are killed by beatings. It warrants deadly force in some circumstances. I think the officer in question both should and could have handled it much better. There was no need to get him to lie on the ground, no need for the TASER. If he wanted to cuff him, he could have done that and been done with it.

 

[CPT Nervous]

I'm sad to say, its the Officers responsibility to keep himself prepared for situations that tend to happen on the job. And rolling around in the street is one of those things that just comes along with the job in a patrol car or walking a beat. And this Officer couldn't handle a 19 year old man. If he would have practiced his basic Hand to hand skills, this never would have happened. This foolish young man would be alive, and a Officer would never have to live with what he did.
It seems all to often in today's world, that a Officer pulls out this pistol when its just not needed. A few punches is certainly better than living with killing someone.

I agree.

And no I don't believe this shooting was justified.

I disagree.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Yep, whenever I murder people, I wait until I'm on my back and they're punching me in the face. I bet you think George Zimmerman is a murderer, too, doncha?

The video is explicitly clear. Sure, the officer made some mistakes leading up to the shoot, but the moment he was attacked, deadly force was justified. It does look as if the TASER hit the officer, I don't see any other reason for him to fall like he did.

Where did you see a murder occur?

Ok....... Let's see. Let me quote a well known expert on this very subject; "Sure, the officer made some mistakes leading up to the shoot". Now when an individual makes mistakes, and those mistakes directly and ultimately result in a homicide, there is a liability to those actions.

So by your very own judgement this officer has some amount of liability in this homicide. The only remaining question is just how much. In my estimation his level of liability is lots.

Officer initiated contact for a frivolous reason. Officer summarily dismisses a very rational explanation for said frivolous infraction. Officers fails to deescalate the contact peacefully when it begins to go to hell and instead chooses to engage in physical contact before backup arrives. Officer is not competent to perform physical contact that he himself chose (obviously mistakenly) and instead of disengaging from manhandling an unarmed prone juvenile and waiting for backup, he immediately fires SEVEN SHOTS! Really? Seven? Do we suppose that was enough?

Now a young man is dead when he shouldn't have been stopped in the first place, and after his explanation that he was signaling that the officer had bright lights should have been sent on his way. When the kid's passive resistance became more than he could take this Officer initiated violence, and chose to do it alone.

All these mistakes made by a professional LEO who is trusted with public safety and with judicial use of deadly force. You dismiss his mistakes while blaming a foolish non-compliant teenager for being a foolish non-compliant teenager. The Officer chooses to escalate this encounter to the point where a life is forfeited. He is liable for his mistakes,

 

[jstory]

Sad what happened, but this is so typical of teenagers today. I flashed a cop once, didn't realize he was a cop, and yes, he had his rights on. But for me...everything went fine.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Ok....... Let's see. Let me quote a well known expert on this very subject; "Sure, the officer made some mistakes leading up to the shoot". Now when an individual makes mistakes, and those mistakes directly and ultimately result in a homicide, there is a liability to those actions.

So by your very own judgement this officer has some amount of liability in this homicide. The only remaining question is just how much. In my estimation his level of liability is lots.

Officer initiated contact for a frivolous reason. Officer summarily dismisses a very rational explanation for said frivolous infraction. Officers fails to deescalate the contact peacefully when it begins to go to hell and instead chooses to engage in physical contact before backup arrives. Officer is not competent to perform physical contact that he himself chose (obviously mistakenly) and instead of disengaging from manhandling an unarmed prone juvenile and waiting for backup, he immediately fires SEVEN SHOTS! Really? Seven? Do we suppose that was enough?

Now a young man is dead when he shouldn't have been stopped in the first place, and after his explanation that he was signaling that the officer had bright lights should have been sent on his way. When the kid's passive resistance became more than he could take this Officer initiated violence, and chose to do it alone.

All these mistakes made by a professional LEO who is trusted with public safety and with judicial use of deadly force. You dismiss his mistakes while blaming a foolish non-compliant teenager for being a foolish non-compliant teenager. The Officer chooses to escalate this encounter to the point where a life is forfeited. He is liable for his mistakes,

The officer did not make the teenager attack him. He escalated the encounter, yes. I'm still trying to figure out where the teenager had a legal right to attack the officer. As far as I'm concerned, one has a legal right to defend one's self when attacked. A 19 year old should have enough sense to not punch a cop in his face. In this case, it was a fatal mistake.

Could the officer have handled it better? Sure. We all agree on that. That doesn't change that what happened happened, he was cleared by his department, it was a clean shoot.

I know an officer that was severely injured and hospitalized after a kid younger than this one jumped on him and beat his face in. He should have shot him, but he didn't. The moment you are on top of someone, beating their face, you have just escalated the encounter to deadly force. I can't fault this officer for meeting deadly force with deadly force.

Sad what happened, but this is so typical of teenagers today. I flashed a cop once, didn't realize he was a cop, and yes, he had his rights on. But for me...everything went fine.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure not jumping on the officer and punching him in his face had a lot to do with that.


You're just lucky you're not a sex offender after flashing a cop. Pretty ballsy thing to do.

 

[jstory]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure not jumping on the officer and punching him in his face had a lot to do with that.


You're just lucky you're not a sex offender after flashing a cop. Pretty ballsy thing to do.

He never gave me a ticket or asked for a date so I guess he wasn't impressed. It was a dark night, no moon, didn't realize it was a cop.

 

[CPT Nervous]

He never gave me a ticket or asked for a date so I guess he wasn't impressed. It was a dark night, no moon, didn't realize it was a cop.

Maybe he didn't realize you flashed him.



We've all been there.

 

[Arthur Dent]

The officer did not make the teenager attack him. He escalated the encounter, yes. I'm still trying to figure out where the teenager had a legal right to attack the officer. As far as I'm concerned, one has a legal right to defend one's self when attacked. A 19 year old should have enough sense to not punch a cop in his face. In this case, it was a fatal mistake.

Could the officer have handled it better? Sure. We all agree on that. That doesn't change that what happened happened, he was cleared by his department, it was a clean shoot.

I know an officer that was severely injured and hospitalized after a kid younger than this one jumped on him and beat his face in. He should have shot him, but he didn't. The moment you are on top of someone, beating their face, you have just escalated the encounter to deadly force. I can't fault this officer for meeting deadly force with deadly force.



Yeah, I'm pretty sure not jumping on the officer and punching him in his face had a lot to do with that.


You're just lucky you're not a sex offender after flashing a cop. Pretty ballsy thing to do.

Had the cop not pulled the kid over for a non-offense this discussion wouldn't even exist. Should the kid have attacked the cop? Hell, no! But that would not have happened if the cop didn't initiate contact by pulling the kid over.

 

[OutdoorDad]

I'm sad to say, its the Officers responsibility to keep himself prepared for situations that tend to happen on the job. And rolling around in the street is one of those things that just comes along with the job in a patrol car or walking a beat. And this Officer couldn't handle a 19 year old man. If he would have practiced his basic Hand to hand skills, this never would have happened. This foolish young man would be alive, and a Officer would never have to live with what he did.
It seems all to often in today's world, that a Officer pulls out this pistol when its just not needed. A few punches is certainly better than living with killing someone.
And no I don't believe this shooting was justified.

concise and correct.