Mike Pence Should Step Down.

[mrjarrell]

Arkansas' governor is apparently a bit smarter than Pence. He sent their version back to the legislature to avoid the ****storm and have them craft it without the ability to discriminate. He seems a bit better than Pence. Certainly better spoken than the avoider-in-chief.

Arkansas governor sends religious freedom bill back to legislators - CNN.com

 

[redwingshooter]

this law is going to cause more discrimination, just like ccw was going to cause blood to flow in the streets.

Best post of the thread!

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Arkansas' governor is apparently a bit smarter than Pence. He sent their version back to the legislature to avoid the ****storm and have them craft it without the ability to discriminate. He seems a bit better than Pence. Certainly better spoken than the avoider-in-chief.

Arkansas governor sends religious freedom bill back to legislators - CNN.com

Then move there.... yeesh...


You hate Pence - we get it. I'm not a raging fan of his - but the savagery being exhibited by the good tolerant folks on the left is beginning to become tiresome.

As for all of the Angie's List types that are all boycott this, get me on the bandwagon that - If you are from Indiana and don't like Pence - then vote him out of office. If you are not from Indiana - then pour yourself a big old steaming mug of STHU.

 

[Alpo]

There will be a lot of time in the future to review what happened here. One thing is for sure: Indiana got a black eye for a non-problem. A pox on all the idiots who failed to think this through before hand. We are not a theocracy.

 

[1775usmarine]

Since my questions have gone unanswered. This will blow over once the media and the liberals can find something else to get all up in arms over which ends up pocked with lies.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

Even worse is when a leader blames the free press. Watch him completely lose his cool today after he exhausted his talking points and prepared remarks. He is unwilling to own it. He is appealing to conspiracy theory. Good grief.

Luckily we have common sense GOP leaders like Ballard speaking out against this abomination.

Indiana is the national laughing stock. This weekend, Indy lucked into the perfect storm. A Final Four with 3 regional teams, 2 of which are border states. Yet when the hundreds of thousands sit in resturant lounges and bars the topic of discussion will be how Indiana hates gays. They will see the protests. They will read local news.

Awful leadership. If the GOP wants to save any face Mike Pence must step down.

What is free about the "free press"? George Stephanopolous isn't a journalist...he's a political hack who was the Dem Party political advisor and Clinton's communication director. Now he is ABC's "news anchor"?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Then move there.... yeesh...


You hate Pence - we get it. I'm not a raging fan of his - but the savagery being exhibited by the good tolerant folks on the left is beginning to become tiresome.

As for all of the Angie's List types that are all boycott this, get me on the bandwagon that - If you are from Indiana and don't like Pence - then vote him out of office. If you are not from Indiana - then pour yourself a big old steaming mug of STHU.

Well hopefully a smarter candidate will come forward, and let us oust our current meek executive.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

The intent of the bill was religious freedom...so where does LBGT even come into the equation on that. He stuck by his guns and said that wasn't on the agenda. A clarification to amend the bill, to appease those who feel the need to class people as special is being done. But the bill stands.

 

[Lowe0]

Begging the question. Fail.

Do you have any real evidence?

There's a significant anti-atheist undercurrent in American politics. Seven states legally bar atheists from holding office. Per a Pew Research poll, 53% of Americans would not vote for an atheist, the most negatively-viewed category in the poll. Over and over, we hear that this is a Christian nation, that secularism is eroding the nation's moral center, that the First Amendment doesn't apply to atheism... and you think I'm unfounded in my belief that people like me are unwelcome in the eyes of Indiana's citizens, its legislature, and its judiciary?

 

[Beowulf]

While I support any business owners right to free association, I will say that I do not care for the negative consequences that may affect me because Pence and the Indiana legislature though it was a burning necessity to put this into law nearly 20 years after the other oft-mentioned states and Federal government did. In my opinion, this law was completely unnecessary and only servers to tick off the entire country, causing an economic backlash against the state.

Here's the real issue, whether you think this law is "protecting religious freedom" or not... it's a big loser with the public. So from just a real politic standpoint, passing it was completely stupid, especially since there was no driving need in Indiana to do so (the only example that relates to this topic that I've heard of was 111 Cakery and they went under, not because the government forced them to serve gay people, but because THEIR CUSTOMERS were revolted by the action and stopped doing business with them).

Fact of the matter is that public approval of gay marriage is at (or has exceeded depending on the poll) 60% in America (and support for other options like civil unions is higher). That support has changed from 30% in less than 10 years and continues to climb. In another 10 years, it's likely that politicians that stand in public opposition of gay marriage are going to look an awful lot like George Wallace campaigning on "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" .

Republicans need to face facts: opposing homosexuality and gay marriage is a losing proposition, at least if they don't want to commit political suicide. Now, given the general incompetence of the GOP leadership, maybe they all signed a Heaven's Gate -like pact and want to go out in a blaze of glory and leave the country in the equally corrupt hands of the Democrats. Who knows.

Now for those who have deep-set beliefs that are in opposition to homosexuality and recognition of gay marriage (note that I make a distinction here between people who have such beliefs and Republicans, because they are not synonymous), I support your right to believe whatever you want. That's the beauty of America. However, you are just going to have to resign yourself to being more and more looked at like the people who opposed interracial marriage and supported segregation. That might not be fair, but it's how it is. Be prepared to face public persecution for your unpopular beliefs. You might find that your businesses are boycotted, or that you lose long friendships or relationships with family (ironically common things faced by gay people and people in interracial relationships in the past, and also still in the present). The government has no business writing legislation that targets you for your beliefs, but it also has no business writing legislation protecting you from the legal consequences of your beliefs (aforementioned public mockery and boycotts... obviously you will still be afforded the same protection any person should have to prevent physical harm from being done to you).

 

[Baditude]

What I don't understand is that based upon Wikipedia's LGBT demographics for the United States is 3.8%, why all the pandering for such a super minority?

 

[Dead Duck]

There's a significant anti-atheist undercurrent in American politics. Seven states legally bar atheists from holding office. Per a Pew Research poll, 53% of Americans would not vote for an atheist, the most negatively-viewed category in the poll. Over and over, we hear that this is a Christian nation, that secularism is eroding the nation's moral center, that the First Amendment doesn't apply to atheism... and you think I'm unfounded in my belief that people like me are unwelcome in the eyes of Indiana's citizens, its legislature, and its judiciary?

Sorry you feel unwanted.
Let me be the first to say that Atheists, Gays, Transgensexualists, Liberals, Lawyers, etc....

You are all welcome here in Indiana and free to join us normal folks.

 

[phylodog]

What I don't understand is that based upon Wikipedia's LGBT demographics for the United States is 3.8%, why all the pandering for such a super minority?

Because if you can find a way to claim victim status the world becomes your oyster and you have an automatic excuse for everything that doesn't go your way.

 

[1775usmarine]

So will they force churches who do not support gay marriage to do those ceremonies when and if the Supreme Court says gay marriage is a right? If so then I guess separation of church and state along with the 1st amendment can be thrown out of the window.

 

[phylodog]

So will they force churches who do not support gay marriage to do those ceremonies when and if the Supreme Court says gay marriage is a right? If so then I guess separation of church and state along with the 1st amendment can be thrown out of the window.

They're just going to change the bill of rights. At the end of every one of them, they will add "Unless you're in the majority" in parentheses.

 

[chipbennett]

There's a significant anti-atheist undercurrent in American politics. Seven states legally bar atheists from holding office. Per a Pew Research poll, 53% of Americans would not vote for an atheist, the most negatively-viewed category in the poll. Over and over, we hear that this is a Christian nation, that secularism is eroding the nation's moral center, that the First Amendment doesn't apply to atheism... and you think I'm unfounded in my belief that people like me are unwelcome in the eyes of Indiana's citizens, its legislature, and its judiciary?

I'm asking for evidence. Is Indiana one of the seven states?

And more importantly: what does any of that have to do with our example scenario of Mr. N. Tolerant invoking the Indiana RFRA when sued for discrimination against Atheists R Us?

 

[chipbennett]

While I support any business owners right to free association, I will say that I do not care for the negative consequences that may affect me because Pence and the Indiana legislature though it was a burning necessity to put this into law nearly 20 years after the other oft-mentioned states and Federal government did. In my opinion, this law was completely unnecessary and only servers to tick off the entire country, causing an economic backlash against the state.

Here's the real issue, whether you think this law is "protecting religious freedom" or not... it's a big loser with the public. So from just a real politic standpoint, passing it was completely stupid, especially since there was no driving need in Indiana to do so (the only example that relates to this topic that I've heard of was 111 Cakery and they went under, not because the government forced them to serve gay people, but because THEIR CUSTOMERS were revolted by the action and stopped doing business with them).

Fact of the matter is that public approval of gay marriage is at (or has exceeded depending on the poll) 60% in America (and support for other options like civil unions is higher). That support has changed from 30% in less than 10 years and continues to climb. In another 10 years, it's likely that politicians that stand in public opposition of gay marriage are going to look an awful lot like George Wallace campaigning on "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" .

Republicans need to face facts: opposing homosexuality and gay marriage is a losing proposition, at least if they don't want to commit political suicide. Now, given the general incompetence of the GOP leadership, maybe they all signed a Heaven's Gate -like pact and want to go out in a blaze of glory and leave the country in the equally corrupt hands of the Democrats. Who knows.

Now for those who have deep-set beliefs that are in opposition to homosexuality and recognition of gay marriage (note that I make a distinction here between people who have such beliefs and Republicans, because they are not synonymous), I support your right to believe whatever you want. That's the beauty of America. However, you are just going to have to resign yourself to being more and more looked at like the people who opposed interracial marriage and supported segregation. That might not be fair, but it's how it is. Be prepared to face public persecution for your unpopular beliefs. You might find that your businesses are boycotted, or that you lose long friendships or relationships with family (ironically common things faced by gay people and people in interracial relationships in the past, and also still in the present). The government has no business writing legislation that targets you for your beliefs, but it also has no business writing legislation protecting you from the legal consequences of your beliefs (aforementioned public mockery and boycotts... obviously you will still be afforded the same protection any person should have to prevent physical harm from being done to you).

that was a really long reply, that completely misses the point. The law has nothing to do with homosexuality or gay marriage. The law merely constrains government entities by requiring the government to use a strict-scrutiny standard to justify a law (statute, etc.) that causes a substantial burden on a person's religious exercise.

 

[Lowe0]

I'm asking for evidence. Is Indiana one of the seven states?

And more importantly: what does any of that have to do with our example scenario of Mr. N. Tolerant invoking the Indiana RFRA when sued for discrimination against Atheists R Us?

Indiana is not one of the seven. You do realize that the political forces that brought us this bill don't stop and start at state lines?

 

[chipbennett]

Indiana is not one of the seven. You do realize that the political forces that brought us this bill don't stop and start at state lines?

Enough with the non-sequiturs: And more importantly: what does any of that have to do with our example scenario of Mr. N. Tolerant invoking the Indiana RFRA when sued for discrimination against Atheists R Us?

 

[mrjarrell]

So will they force churches who do not support gay marriage to do those ceremonies when and if the Supreme Court says gay marriage is a right? If so then I guess separation of church and state along with the 1st amendment can be thrown out of the window.

No, churches will not be forced to perform anything against their wishes. They are already covered and in Indiana they are also covered by the state Constitution.

[h=3]Section 2. Right to worship[/h] Section 2. All people shall be secured in the natural right to worship ALMIGHTY GOD, according to the dictates of their own consciences.
[h=4](History: As Amended November 6, 1984).[/h] [h=3]Section 3. Freedom of religious opinions[/h] Section 3. No law shall, in any case whatever, control the free exercise and enjoyment of religious opinions, or interfere with the rights of conscience.