Military BS Stories or the last liar wins.

[2A_Tom]

Good thing Nuke Engineering was NoForN (No Foreign Nationals)

I just had to deal with American Officers taking tours.
Apparently our officers didn't know the Reactor Compartment, or Machinery Spaces very well.
So the watchstander (many times me) got to point things out.

How the heck do they earn their dolphins?

 

[actaeon277]

How the heck do they earn their dolphins?

Earning your dolphins, means you know more about damage control, communications, and very basic knowledge of equipment.

Subs are exponential factors more complicated than the WWII subs.


And Reactor Compartments...
Well, we try to stay out of those.
So, that limits the amount of people that go in.
And limits those people's experience in there.

And since officers don't actually FIX stuff, they don't really go in often, or for very long.
There's some that will have more experience, for instance the M-Div Officer (mechanics-nuke division officer), because they seem to be in there the most.

And, with the exception of the ChEng (Chief Engineer, pronounced Cheng), the engineering officers are junior officers.
Officers start off in Engineering, and 'graduate' and get to go forward and learn to attack stuff.
So, the ChEng has VERY good knowledge of engineering spaces, the junior officers... not so much.


Previous story somewhere earlier, where I talked about a fire, and the ChEng ripped the EOOW (Engineering Officer Of the Watch) a new one, for NOT listening to his RO (Reactor Operator)... me.

 

[actaeon277]

For example, ask an officer to draw the RPFW (Reactor Plant Fresh Water) system, list it's flow rates and cooling limits.. and you'll get a solid answer.

Point to the drawing, and say.. show me that valve right now..

And he will go to the area... and have to hunt and read the valve handles.



Do the same with a Machinery 2 watchstander.
He will draw it out, list those same rates and values.
And then he will point out each of those valves, probably even if blindfolded.

 

[actaeon277]

Of course, there are things that the enlisted may not do so fast.

If a machinist comes into Maneuvering, and says AS-7 is SHUT, which is a non-standard position for that valve (made up valve number).
Then the EOOW will go to the large plant diagram, pull it open to the correct page for that system, and mark an X over it designating that it is out of position and in the shut position.

If the EOOW were to tell the machinist to mark the board for him, the machinist would page till he found the correct page, and then search for the valve.


As a SRO (Shutdown Reactor Operator) I had to update that board, because the officer was not stationed aft, and only 'visited' while shutdown.
So, I became the man in charge, unless the Officer appeared.
So, I knew the valves on the diagrams, from doing that all the time.


But, if you took a valve in Engine Room Lower Level, I could tell you what it did, but I'd have to search for the physical location.
My specialty was the Reactor operation, Reactor Compartment, Machinery 2, and Maneuvering.
So, I only had a general knowledge of ERUL and ERLL (engine roome upper and lower)

 

[2A_Tom]

OK so dolphins and SW ratings are mostly about SHTF damage control?

 

[Hawkeye]

Good thing Nuke Engineering was NoForN (No Foreign Nationals)

I just had to deal with American Officers taking tours.
Apparently our officers didn't know the Reactor Compartment, or Machinery Spaces very well.
So the watchstander (many times me) got to point things out.

I wonder how they will deal with RAN officers and rnaks trianing on our boats. GUess Aussies might be an exception to No FORN?

Did RN folk ever do exchange tours on our boats?

 

[Nick!]

In 2003, I was the Battalion Operations Officer in Iraq. My section was understaffed and we were over tasked for the amount of work my commander had us doing. It was hot, dusty, we had sporadic electricity, and we were getting indirect fire on a pretty regular basis. Tensions were high and tempers were short. I was an angry, sleep deprived captain.

One ridiculously hot day, a young, retarded lieutenant from my Alpha Company came into my office (btw, I hated the Alpha Company Commander, so by default, I hated his lieutenants as well). He was undeservedly brash and arrogant, especially since his parents were probably siblings. He came over to my desk and declared that I needed to make a copy of the memo that he just had the BC sign. I refused to look up from my work and told him that captains don’t make copies for lieutenants but he was welcome to walk back across the office and make his own copy. He stood there bewildered, and I finally stopped whatever I was doing and looked up at him, pointed to the copier and the door. “Step 1, make your copy. Step 2, go away. Ready, begin!” He walked begrudgingly to the copier and placed his memo in the slot and pressed the button. The copier made a noise I had never heard a copier make before and Lieutenant Einstein said “where does the copy come out?” I said “For God’s sake tell me you put it in the copier and not the…” “I PUT IT IN THE SHREDDER!” he wailed. He ran out of my office, down the hall, and found the XO. XO stormed into my office and demanded to know why I shredded the LT’s memo. LT was behind the XO with a smirk on his face that needed to be wiped off, like now. With all my military bearing that I could muster, I stood up, came to the position of attention, and told the XO that if he continued to hire the handicapped, we were sure as hell going to lose this war. I can’t be held responsible for mutant officers who don’t know the difference between copiers and shredders, and that LT Einstein would probably actually excel in his career if he transferred to the Quartermaster Corps and handed out towels at the gymnasium for the rest of his career.

Later that day I received a negative counseling statement from the BC for not being a better mentor and leader for junior officers. By the end of the day, I was getting phone calls and emails from my buddy’s at Brigade and Division Staff who needed to know if the story they heard was true. Of course, it had already gotten out of hand by the time the story left my shared office…so worth it.

 

[actaeon277]

I wonder how they will deal with RAN officers and rnaks trianing on our boats. GUess Aussies might be an exception to No FORN?

Did RN folk ever do exchange tours on our boats?

Foreign Nationals can go in the sub.

They can not go into Engineering, or Radio.
I can't remember about Sonar. But since Sonar's hatch was always open, I'd guess it was okay.

 

[actaeon277]

OK so dolphins and SW ratings are mostly about SHTF damage control?

Mostly, yes.

You still need a basic knowledge of what happens in that space, and the locations of major equipment.
But whenever the coners (people forward of the Reactor Compartment, they are in the 'cone' of the boat) go aft for their dolphin checkouts, I swear it looked like they thought they'd see zoomies.
They were anxious to get their qual signed, and get out.

Some of the things in addition to what I previously mentioned.. they had to know where the emergency procedures were for that compartment (there's a name for them, I can't remember right now).
And they had to know where the Air Salvage valves were. Air Salvage pumps air into the space, to try to pressurize the Compartment, to either drive out water, or stop it from coming in.

The procedures were in a metal "book" mounted to something. It had plastic coated lists of things to do... for fire, flooding/collision, stuff like that.
A watchstander is expected to do them for his Compartment, from memory.
But memory is fallible. So, after completing it from memory, you are to grab the sheet, and check everything to make sure it was done.
A sailor not standing watch in that space may not know everything from memory, so.. same thing.. do what they can from memory, then get the sheet and do it from the form.

 

[actaeon277]

So, if a torpedoman came to me for his Machinery 2 Upper Level checkout, I'd have him point out the X60J (sound powered phones for Engineering),
the JA (sound powered phones for entire boat),
the telex (phone for unofficial comms, not rated for battle damage)
the upper level to lower level voice tube and associated attention bell
fire extinguisher locations
fire hose locations, and connections to the water supply, and the chart that shows how many feet is needed to go anywhere
Air salvage valves
Bulkhead dampers, forward and aft, port and starboard
watchbill (I think that was the name of the emergency procedures)
emergency radiation shower/bathroom, and the emergency isolation valves
inboard diesel exhaust damper
the main electrical distribution breakers location (no specifics, they wouldn't remember)
the secondary breakers (like the ones in your house)
hatches in the deck
nuke instrument/control cabinets (no specifics again)
sometimes I'd spin them around a few times, then ask them which way is forward/aft and port/starboard
Simulate calling Maneuvering to announce a casualty.


Off the top of my head. I may have missed a few items.

I also gave checkouts for the Reactor Compartment, and the Reactor Compartment Tunnel.
Those were usually easier, in that there was less to cover, but harder because you walk through the tunnel and minimize your time there, and generally the RC is not accessed, you just use a window with a special mirror attachment.

 

[actaeon277]

Now, if someone came to me to qualify to stand AMR2UL watch, oh my God.
They would have to know EVERY system.
Be able to draw it.
Be able to show the physical part of each item on the drawing
Trace the pipes/conduit.
Give any ratings for that system.
Be able to switch configurations for any system, from memory.
Explain why they did it, and why they did it in that order
Line up the compartment for any casualty on the watchbill, from memory
Simulate calling Maneuvering with a casualty.

They'd of course have to know the stuff I listed in the above post.
You can't be a watchstander in a space, if you don't know the stuff EVERYBODY is expected to know, and MORE.


I'm sure there's more.
It's been a while.


And then once again there'd be the RC and RC tunnel.

 

[actaeon277]

I wonder how they will deal with RAN officers and rnaks trianing on our boats. GUess Aussies might be an exception to No FORN?

Did RN folk ever do exchange tours on our boats?

I was a liaison PO to a British boat once.
Mostly, I sat with a Brit, and a phone.
If they had a problem they needed something, they'd tell me, and I'd make a call.
Such as, needing fire dept, one of their guys got arrested, someone's lost at Broadway and 3rd and doesn't know how to get to the boat... stuff like that.

Some of the Chiefs and Officers did a visit to each others boat.
But, those tours did not include Engineering or Radio. On either boat.


I did meet a British Contractor for their boat, and checked him in.
Since I was a nuke and he was a contractor for their engineering plant, we talked a bit.
Nothing that would be considered classified though.

 

[Alamo]

I wonder how they will deal with RAN officers and rnaks trianing on our boats. GUess Aussies might be an exception to No FORN?

The AUKUS program will see at least three, maybe up to five, Virginia Class boats be sold to the Aussies as a bridge to when the British-designed-with-US-technology AUKUS subs are built and delivered. But even those won’t go to Oz until early 2030s, so I would guess we’ll have Australians on some of our boats for several years.

Aussies are already attending and graduated from US “nuke school” per the article below. It says they will be assigned to USN Virginia-class boats for further training.

So the NOFORN is modified to be “except the Aussies.” I forget how this is formally marked on documents.

I suspect those USN boats not used for training the Aussies will remain completely NOFORN.

'It was sink or swim': Three Aussie submariners just graduated from an elite AUKUS training program

At an elite naval school in South Carolina, the first three Australian submariners are graduating from a nuclear training program, in preparation for the first stage of nuclear-powered subs to be delivered under the AUKUS deal.

www.abc.net.au

Security factoid: when I was in a NATO assignment, I was “FORN” for US information security purposes. So I was not supposed to see NOFORN stuff. The US E-3A and the NATO E-3A were very nearly identical, but there were a couple systems on the US model I could no longer talk or think about.

 

[Alamo]

The post regarding the Iranian pilots jogged a memory of mine. I was an Armor Officer at Ft Knox in the late 90s going through OBC. We had a tank full of Saudi Arabian officers …

Which further reminds me …

I was stationed in Saudi as part of the Peace Shield program, which was a ground-based radar system for the Kingdom. It was built by Hughes, it’s pretty cool actually, I saw some great aerial traffic views of the entire region.

The system had been set up by the Americans with the official intent that the Saudis would train and take over operation and maintenance of it. I’m sure it was a terrific revenue stream for years, and I got the impression that the US and Hughes had probably dragged their feet on transitioning it to the complete control of the royal Saudi Air Force. No doubt there was some self interest on our part, but the RSAF had their own hand in this, as the Arab militaries were not known for their abilities to handle high-tech stuff.

Some of the Saudis had caught on to all this, and were vigorously pressing the US and Hughes to complete the handover of the system.

As part of the contract Hughes had built a very nice set of training buildings at the Central Maintenance Facility for the system on Prince Sultan Air Base, where I was stationed. I took a tour of them with one of the Hughes guys when I first got there, and he walk me through building after building with all these brand, new modern classrooms, complete with what was done state of the art tech stuff like big screen TVs for video training, etc. etc. They were all closed, with plastic covers over all the equipment to keep the dust out.

He said they repeatedly scheduled classes for RSAF students to learn maintenance of the first parts of the system, and then had to cancel those classes, because not nearly enough students showed up to make them worthwhile. The RSAF scheduled students, but the students would just decide not to show up.

He said this was a problem across the RSAF, several other bases were the same way. He said one of the other bases had a hardass Saudi general in charge and half the airmen on base were in the brig because they failed to report for class. Most Saudi commanders were not that tough, so the students would simply be told show up for the next class.

One day I ran into a US Army officer, first lieutenant if I recall correctly and I believe an armor guy. He was assigned to OPM SANG, which was the Office of the Program Manager, Saudi Arabia National Guard. This was a separate foreign military sales program for the US Army to train the Saudi Arabian National Guard.

SANG was not anything like our national guard. It was basically a separate army from the Saudi Army, and dedicated to protecting the royal family. it had infantry and armor and helicopters I guess basically it was to keep their regular army and air force at bay.

I remember how very tired the lieutenant looked. Having come fresh off my tour of the non-attending RSAF students, I asked him if the SANG could fight it’s way out of a paper bag. He rolled his eyes.

 

[Hawkeye]

Foreign Nationals can go in the sub.

They can not go into Engineering, or Radio.
I can't remember about Sonar. But since Sonar's hatch was always open, I'd guess it was okay.

I'm guessing, but there may be some changes as the aussies qualify on our nukes. We are set to train them for their own nukes.

 

[Brad69]

IME,
Not Nuclear stuff I have no Idea on that. On normal classified stuff much of it’s is ABCA America, British, Canadian, Australian eyes only. So even some big stuff they can look at I Learned that on my exchange with the U.K. They pulled up my clearance on there system did not know that was possible.

Some is NATO but if it’s ABCA they cannot see it. Germans and the French are notorious for pushing the limits on classified stuff.

 

[2A_Tom]

When I was at Battalion S2, we had a British Major exchange officer as our S3. He could not be read on for the S3 TS slot, so I as an E6 filled the slot.

But that was in '82.

 

[SnoopLoggyDog]

 

[actaeon277]

Now, if someone came to me to qualify to stand AMR2UL watch, oh my God.
They would have to know EVERY system.
Be able to draw it.
Be able to show the physical part of each item on the drawing
Trace the pipes/conduit.
Give any ratings for that system.
Be able to switch configurations for any system, from memory.
Explain why they did it, and why they did it in that order
Line up the compartment for any casualty on the watchbill, from memory
Simulate calling Maneuvering with a casualty.

They'd of course have to know the stuff I listed in the above post.
You can't be a watchstander in a space, if you don't know the stuff EVERYBODY is expected to know, and MORE.


I'm sure there's more.
It's been a while.


And then once again there'd be the RC and RC tunnel.

Of course, being from Engineering, I default to thinking about Engineering.

But.. while we can't expect everyone on the sub to be able to operate the nuke plant... we CAN (DO) expect everyone to be able to manually be able to fire a torpedo.
Normally, it is electrically fired, from Control.
But, sht happens.
So, you have to know what that button does, when that button doesn't work.
So, you had to be able to walk thru the description in an interview of what order, what valves, and why.
Then... you had to fire a "water slug". Basically fire the torpedo tube, with no torpedo in it. So, you'd shoot a slug of water out.
But.. you had to do the manual procedure.
And, it's more involved than you'd think.
I can remember a lot of the nuke stuff. But manually fire a torpedo... not so much anymore.

____________________________________________________________

Also, since most of the sub quals involved damage control...
The torpedo room carried special notices.
Such as.. keep the torpedoes COOL in the event of a fire.
Before we received special FFEs (FireFighting Ensembles, specialized clothes), fire team one would fight the fire, and fire team two would keep fire team one cool with the low velocity fogger.
But.. in the torpedo room, fire team two would keep the torpedoes cook, and fire team one would just have to deal with it.

The explosives were only a problem, if they melted and 'changed state'. AFTER they melted, they were 'unstable'.

___________________________________________________________________

Another torpedo problem, was the fuel.
It was poisonous.
And if exposed to heat, formed a poisonous gas, Hydrogen Cyanide.
So.. in the event of a leak, shut off ALL heat sources possible. And shut down ALL ventilation.

 

[Squid556]

Had another one come to mind you guys might find funny.

When I got to the San Antonio, I was an undesignated deck seaman. So by default I was assigned to work in deck department doing a lot of painting work. That's fine, I don't mind working my way up. No big deal right?



So I get on board one day while we were in a maint. cycle in the yards. My BM2 told me to go help paint and preservate the stern gate.

Stern gate... Huge door for amphibious operations. Entire width of the ship and at least 30 foot tall. Maybe more.

So I get down there and see a bunch of other undesignated guys painting on this massive "door".

Petty officer in charge hands me FIVE of these taped together and says get to work

And that was my first "oh I F'd up" moment.