Modern Samurai Project Black Belt Standards

[ATM]

Shooting these drills from concealment is killing my accuracy (my times are great, though).

When I take down the tarp I've been hiding behind and can see the targets, my accuracy improves somewhat but my times start to increase.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[cedartop]

Indeed! That is impressive.

He is saving a tenth or two by staging his hands ready to clear his garment though. My opinion (which doesn't matter) is that hands should be in a more neutral position such as at sides or a surrender position with wrist above shoulders. My concealed draw times would definitely be better if I started with my support hand ready to hook my shirt.

Another thing is, I think someone else should operate the timer or the delay should be random. Using a fixed delay allows you to anticipate when the beep is going to happen, whether you realize you're doing it or not.

Actually I was a little surprised by that. In class everything from concealment was done from the fence position.

 

[Coach]

Is there some arms race in the training industry to have the toughest standards for whatever coin/certificate/geegaw you get? Serious question, are these primarily a marketing ploy where the standards are arbitrary (or what the instructor feels they can routinely demonstrate) or is there some meaning, some correlation to the "test" that's relevant to a pursuit outside the test?

Not singling out this particular test, I'm just seeing more and more instructors with their own "the test".

Fast and accurate shooting when it is needed would seem to be the correlation. Having a test that would be the measure seems reasonable. Some sort of test to measure skill and progress would seem useful.

The marketing comes into play with coins, badges or pins. People like those and specifically when they have been earned. I don't place much stock in certificates that are given out in many classes, but many people do. I have been in classes where the certificates were given out at the beginning of class. What is the point?

There are more important things than pins, coins and such but they are a marketing thing and the skill they represent in my mind is much more important. I think these coins, pins and standard are fine compared to ninja rolls and stunts or outlandish rants on video that some trainers and schools use to set themselves apart from the field.

 

[Coach]

Shooting these drills from concealment is killing my accuracy (my times are great, though).

When I take down the tarp I've been hiding behind and can see the targets, my accuracy improves somewhat but my times start to increase.

Any help would be appreciated.

Scientifically proving the superiority of Open Carry.

 

[riverman67]

I'm going to to go out on a limb here because I'm not an authority in these matters.
I've been thinking about this thread since I read it.
I'll have to put some of this stuff to a timer because I haven't in quite awhile.
I'm quite certain that I can get close to most of the requirements listed with some concerted effort.
My question is
With the amount of time and work required to get that last tenth of a second , from say 1.12 to 1.00 or .99 to an alpha at 7 yards.
Would that practice time be better spent working on something that that person really sucks at? For instance one handed shooting.
Most regular folks have a limited amount of time to practice he'll most don't really practice at all.
My thought is a respected trainer or school puts standards such as these and there is nothing wrong with them, but they are tough, some will never make them.
Those folks end up practicing the test and nothing else, they will certainly get better at shooting but it is the best use of limited time and ammo?
I'm rambling I'll shut up

 

[cedartop]

I'm going to to go out on a limb here because I'm not an authority in these matters.
I've been thinking about this thread since I read it.
I'll have to put some of this stuff to a timer because I haven't in quite awhile.
I'm quite certain that I can get close to most of the requirements listed with some concerted effort.
My question is
With the amount of time and work required to get that last tenth of a second , from say 1.12 to 1.00 or .99 to an alpha at 7 yards.
Would that practice time be better spent working on something that that person really sucks at? For instance one handed shooting.
Most regular folks have a limited amount of time to practice he'll most don't really practice at all.
My thought is a respected trainer or school puts standards such as these and there is nothing wrong with them, but they are tough, some will never make them.
Those folks end up practicing the test and nothing else, they will certainly get better at shooting but it is the best use of limited time and ammo?
I'm rambling I'll shut up

That is actually a pretty big jump. Right up front I am going to say I can't do any of these currently except the 1.5 at 25 and not consistently enough to do it on demand. There may be some people who can stumble on to some of these numbers for a time or two, but we are talking about being able to do them 90+ percent of the time. That cuts down the eligible applicants pretty quickly.

As to the rest of your ramble, those are legitimate observations.

 

[devildog70]

I'm going to to go out on a limb here because I'm not an authority in these matters.
I've been thinking about this thread since I read it.
I'll have to put some of this stuff to a timer because I haven't in quite awhile.
I'm quite certain that I can get close to most of the requirements listed with some concerted effort.
My question is
With the amount of time and work required to get that last tenth of a second , from say 1.12 to 1.00 or .99 to an alpha at 7 yards.
Would that practice time be better spent working on something that that person really sucks at? For instance one handed shooting.
Most regular folks have a limited amount of time to practice he'll most don't really practice at all.
My thought is a respected trainer or school puts standards such as these and there is nothing wrong with them, but they are tough, some will never make them.
Those folks end up practicing the test and nothing else, they will certainly get better at shooting but it is the best use of limited time and ammo?
I'm rambling I'll shut up

John Hearne has an interesting graph he put together, regarding automaticity and diminishing returns.

https://www.growingupguns.com/2017/08/23/paul-e-palooza-4-819-202017-day-1/img_4558/

 

[cedartop]

John Hearne has an interesting graph he put together, regarding automaticity and diminishing returns.

https://www.growingupguns.com/2017/08/23/paul-e-palooza-4-819-202017-day-1/img_4558/

I love that chart and Gabe Whites updated version. Obviously it isn't accurate across the board but I do think it gives a fairly good representation. I hadn't seen that line before about the diminishing returns. Interesting.

 

[devildog70]

I love that chart and Gabe Whites updated version. Obviously it isn't accurate across the board but I do think it gives a fairly good representation. I hadn't seen that line before about the diminishing returns. Interesting.

I refer to John as the Savant of Shooting. Super knowledgeable guy.

 

[riverman67]

Gamer stuff
Draw to an alpha at 7
Best out of 20 .93
Average 1.06
We can safely add a few tenths for concealment garment.
I don't specifically work on draw speed anymore in dryfire
But I don't intentionally draw slowly.
It would take a bunch of work to make this better

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Fast and accurate shooting when it is needed would seem to be the correlation. Having a test that would be the measure seems reasonable. Some sort of test to measure skill and progress would seem useful.

Which while all true, fails to address the question. I'm not questioning the skills, I'm questioning the standards and the rationale behind them. Are the standards themselves correlating to something, or are they just arbitrary based on the feels or abilities of the given instructor? If you can do X in .7 seconds vs in .9 seconds vs 1.1 seconds, what does that correlate to in the real world or in gamer world? And how is that being determined?

The marketing comes into play with coins, badges or pins. People like those and specifically when they have been earned.

Also not in dispute. Which is why I question if the standards are just becoming an arms race. My standards are higher than your standards, so my geegaw has more prestige than your geegaw. And of course you have to take my class to earn my geegaw.

I think these coins, pins and standard are fine compared to ninja rolls and stunts or outlandish rants on video that some trainers and schools use to set themselves apart from the field.

While I agree, I think it's symptomatic of the training as entertainment environment. Which, honestly, is probably a good thing at the end of the day if it gets more people to train. Geegaws and social media presence aside, the simple "are you better leaving then arriving" still seems the best metric for an instructor of any sort of discipline, IMO.

 

[Fargo]

The standards are cool goals to aim for, but I have trouble correlating them to objective self defense needs. I wish I was close to that fast, but in my circumstances there are priorities way ahead of those.

I have limited time/money to train with so I've adopted a "master of none" philosophy where I strive to achieve/maintain a basic level of competence in a variety of disciplines, understanding that I lack the time/money/talent to be the "best" at any of them.

At present, I need to switch to a different holster and remaster drawing from it. I need to shoot at least twice as often as I have been of late. I've been doing good on the standup and ground fighting practice, but since I destroyed my ankle on Monday, the crutches are going to hamper everything for a while...

 

[riverman67]

The standards are cool goals to aim for, but I have trouble correlating them to objective self defense needs. I wish I was close to that fast, but in my circumstances there are priorities way ahead of those.

I have limited time/money to train with so I've adopted a "master of none" philosophy where I strive to achieve/maintain a basic level of competence in a variety of disciplines, understanding that I lack the time/money/talent to be the "best" at any of them.

At present, I need to switch to a different holster and remaster drawing from it. I need to shoot at least twice as often as I have been of late. I've been doing good on the standup and ground fighting practice, but since I destroyed my ankle on Monday, the crutches are going to hamper everything for a while...

This is kind of where I was going.
My time and money would be better spent taking an unarmed self defense class than they would be chasing a sub second alpha at 7 yards with concealment.
I'm a real novice when it comes to this stuff. I can shoot "good enough" I think.
Just some thoughts from an old dumb guy

 

[turnandshoot4]

My time and money would be better spent taking an unarmed self defense class than they would be chasing a sub second alpha at 7 yards with concealment.

A great point!

Learning to create space to make that draw might be better spent than a faster draw.

It seems like some of these personalities are pushing out the perception that it is the OK corral. You are standing across from someone and you have to stand and deliver while they are simultaneously doing so.

Not that I think he would be slow if he was circling in the fence while verbalizing with a threat, but it would be a different animal.

 

[Vigilant]

The standards are cool goals to aim for, but I have trouble correlating them to objective self defense needs. I wish I was close to that fast, but in my circumstances there are priorities way ahead of those.

I have limited time/money to train with so I've adopted a "master of none" philosophy where I strive to achieve/maintain a basic level of competence in a variety of disciplines, understanding that I lack the time/money/talent to be the "best" at any of them.

At present, I need to switch to a different holster and remaster drawing from it. I need to shoot at least twice as often as I have been of late. I've been doing good on the standup and ground fighting practice, but since I destroyed my ankle on Monday, the crutches are going to hamper everything for a while...

I’ll allow you onto Team Vigilant, and as soon as the sponsors show up, ammo will be abundant!

 

[Fargo]

I’ll allow you onto Team Vigilant, and as soon as the sponsors show up, ammo will be abundant!

Glorious! Is this a neckbeard or no-neckbeard team? If we go neckbeard, I'm going to need a substantial warning in advance. Like months.

 

[Vigilant]

Glorious! Is this a neckbeard or no-neckbeard team? If we go neckbeard, I'm going to need a substantial warning in advance. Like months.

Beards optional, but encouraged. Once the sponsor dollars start coming in, we can look at neck beard implants.

 

[riverman67]

Can I join
I'm just looking for free ammo
I'll loan beard I hate shaving

 

[Coach]

If the typical gunfight is around three seconds long it would seem a good idea to have your shot on target in less than half that time. The 21 foot distance seems to be attached to a second and a half time frame as I recall. There seems to be enough correlation to that at least for me.

People with a three second draw are not skilled enough.

Is a sub 1 second draw needed? It depends. I would rather have it than not have it. The standards did not seem to be labeled what was necessary or what is good enough but the mark of a skilled gunman. Something that is out of the every day dude's reach would seem to be the level of skilled.

 

[Randy Harris]

Yep... it is after all the BLACK BELT standards ....not Green Belt standards.....