More FBI Shenanigans

[chipbennett]

Okay, upon further reflection maybe I am thinking about this one wrong.

I just can't help but shake the feeling that if the FBI had done this to one of the many nutjobs threatening to kill Donald Trump during his presidency, the general conservative consensus would be to cheer for the FBI and say the nutjob got what he deserved. And maybe it was that thought that made be have a knee-jerk reaction to thinking the way I did.

If the fact pattern were the same, except the nutjob had threatened a Republican president/candidate, I would like to think that my reaction is the same. I try to be consistent about all people enjoying constitutional protection of rights.

I do see your point about no-knock raids, though.

On the other hand, I also find myself often disagreeing with the way many people seem to poo-poo death threats and the like because they're "just words." I tend to hold the unpopular opinion that when someone threatens to kill another person, they should be taken at their word, and no one should be required to risk their life finding out if the threat was made in earnest, or was just "bloviating."

Fair. But what evidence is there that these threats were credible and/or actionable? Should all such threats be investigated, and treated as credible until otherwise determined through investigation? Absolutely.

But this action wasn't investigation.

Further, based on what little we know, again, it is dubious that his threats were credible. And given that POTUS was (to my knowledge?) not even in Utah at the time of the FBI raid, his threats were, by definition, not imminent.

That notwithstanding, I do think I agree with you in general about no-knock raids. I guess I'm finding myself with with contradicting principles regarding this whole situation, and I'm not quite sure now what I think the correct answer is.

Is there some gray area? Sure. That's going to happen in these sorts of situations. I think the FBI's actions here were well on the wrong side of any such gray area, though.

 

[BugI02]

R.I.P. Randy, Vicki & Sam

And may Lon Horiuchi burn in hell sooner rather than later

 

[chipbennett]

Right. Now there was a credible threat.

...and this guy's threats were any more credible?

 

[Jaybird1980]

I mean, that's exactly my point, though. The FBI should be more proactive about handling those sorts of threats. So yes, I definitely think there's fair criticism for the double-standard in their response to threats against liberal politicians, vs there response to threats against conservative politicians, or against the general public.

That kind of force would have to be applied equally to everyone. Do you trust the FBI to have no bias in the application of that kind of power.

I don't.

 

[chipbennett]

I mean, that's exactly my point, though. The FBI should be more proactive about handling those sorts of threats. So yes, I definitely think there's fair criticism for the double-standard in their response to threats against liberal politicians, vs there response to threats against conservative politicians, or against the general public.

Isn't this the reason that temporary detentions exist? Don't LEO (of whatever type) always have the authority and ability to conduct investigations - including talking to persons of interest, including questioning them formally?

Why is the range of options limited to a) do nothing, or b) no-knock raid and execute?

 

[Jaybird1980]

Did they knock holes in Carlos Bayon's house and bust in during the early morning hours?

I'm legitimately asking as I don't remember.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

That kind of force would have to be applied equally to everyone. Do you trust the FBI to have no bias in the application of that kind of power.

I don't.

Fair enough.

 

[BugI02]

That kind of force would have to be applied equally to everyone. Do you trust the FBI to have no bias in the application of that kind of power.

I don't.

Agreed, especially given their predilection for SWATting peaceful abortion protesters and 'dangerous' Trump-connected hangers on like Roger Stone

I guess CNN couldn't get a stringer there in time, surely they were notified

FBI delenda est

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Isn't this the reason that temporary detentions exist? Don't LEO (of whatever type) always have the authority and ability to conduct investigations - including talking to persons of interest, including questioning them formally?

Why is the range of options limited to a) do nothing, or b) no-knock raid and execute?

Good point. I guess I fell into binary thinking on this one.

 

[KLB]

Further, based on what little we know, again, it is dubious that his threats were credible. And given that POTUS was (to my knowledge?) not even in Utah at the time of the FBI raid, his threats were, by definition, not imminent.

He was due to be there in the near future.

 

[manifest destiny]

I'm a little surprised how much attention this particular guy got. I'd have to believe there is no limit to the number of violent threats posted to the internet daily; be it against a movie star, athlete, politician, etc. I'll bet there are literally thousands every single day against potus alone. I wonder why this guy went to the head of the line?

 

[ghuns]

...and this guy's threats were any more credible?

Kathy Griffin appeared in a photo holding up a Trump mask covered in blood.

I could be wrong, but I don't recall a specific threat was made.

Mr Robertson, in a post about Biden visiting Utah said,

"Digging out my old ghillie suit and cleaning the dust off the M24 sniper rifle"

He also said,

"Perhaps Utah will become famous this week as the place a sniper took out Biden the Marxist."

He was previously visited by the FBI back in March. Apparently two agents did politely knock on his door at that time and question him about threats he made regarding Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg.

He recently posted...

"Hey FBI, you still monitoring my social media? Checking so I can be sure to have a loaded gun handy in case you drop by again."

You can debate how credible his threats towards Biden were. But his threats toward the FBI seems pretty credible to me. He kept engaging in the behavior he was warned to stop. Even escalated it. He could reasonability expect the FBI to show back up. Should we expect them to politely knock the next time?

 

[bobzilla]

How many here on INGO have said that would be what they would do if the .gov came to confiscate their guns? Should they be hunted down and killed for that?

Drama queen. He wasn't hunted and killed for having a loaded gun. He was served an arrest warrant for making threats against the president and FBI. He was shot while serving that warrant.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Drama queen. He wasn't hunted and killed for having a loaded gun. He was served an arrest warrant for making threats against the president and FBI. He was shot while serving that warrant.

This was what I quoted from you. "the man that was shot has posted multiple times that he would make sure he has a loaded gun for them if they come."

Not being a drama queen. How many, here on INGO, have said the equivalent when talking about the FBI or ATF coming to confiscate their guns? Things like, "I'll give them my guns, bullets first!" and the like. Do you deny that those things have been said here? I mean, that's threatening law enforcement is it not? Do those people deserve to have their doors kicked in and shot?

Let me guess...

 

[bobzilla]

This was what I quoted from you. "the man that was shot has posted multiple times that he would make sure he has a loaded gun for them if they come."

Not being a drama queen. How many, here on INGO, have said the equivalent when talking about the FBI or ATF coming to confiscate their guns? Things like, "I'll give them my guns, bullets first!" and the like. Do you deny that those things have been said here? I mean, that's threatening law enforcement is it not? Do those people deserve to have their doors kicked in and shot?

Let me guess...

Nope, the drama queen part is "hunted down and killed". But how many of those people, expecting a presidential visit to the state comment about bringing out their sniper rifle and ghillie suit? Or post that they hope their state is remembered for the one that a sniper killed the president? I'll wait.

EDIT: as I've said before, multiple times, the no-knock should be the rarest method used. Especially if there are other options, which now it appears there were if agents had already been there and interviewed him before.

 

[KLB]

You can debate how credible his threats towards Biden were. But his threats toward the FBI seems pretty credible to me. He kept engaging in the behavior he was warned to stop. Even escalated it. He could reasonability expect the FBI to show back up. Should we expect them to politely knock the next time?

Yes. Until he actually becomes violent, they should be politely knocking.

 

[KLB]

Nope, the drama queen part is "hunted down and killed". But how many of those people, expecting a presidential visit to the state comment about bringing out their sniper rifle and ghillie suit? Or post that they hope their state is remembered for the one that a sniper killed the president? I'll wait.

Dude was 74 and needed a cane to walk. You think he was a credible threat to go out and shoot the President?

He also previously made comments about killing Pelosi and others. Amazingly, none of them are dead.

 

[bobzilla]

Honestly, which one of us is dumb enough to think that in this current political climate running your mouth off about assasinating the president and threatening to shoot the fibby's is a smart move? I know we are all sick and tired of the bs and the way the commies are pushing things but we should all know that we are being watched like a hawk right now. Don't be stupid, sometimes those consequences are too high.

 

[bobzilla]

Yes. Until he actually becomes violent, they should be politely knocking.

This I agree with. But they SHOULD be investigating.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Nope, the drama queen part is "hunted down and killed". But how many of those people, expecting a presidential visit to the state comment about bringing out their sniper rifle and ghillie suit? Or post that they hope their state is remembered for the one that a sniper killed the president? I'll wait.

EDIT: as I've said before, multiple times, the no-knock should be the rarest method used. Especially if there are other options, which now it appears there were if agents had already been there and interviewed him before.

My point is both are just internet bloviating unless and until they are acted upon. At the point that the FBI forced their way into his house, he was not an imminent threat any more than people on INGO are an imminent threat.

We are definitely in agreement about no-knock raids.