My 1st attempt at understanding USPSA scoring

[RobbyMaQ]

So I attended two of Coach's Intro to USPSA sessions this past weekend, and after some clarification by Rhino on scoring, I have looked at the numbers in an attempt to better understand the scoring, and to see if I improved in the afternoon session (compared to the morning session). I am a complete noob, so In the AM class, I 'tried' to be deliberate & concentrate on hits. In the afternoon, I tried to push for faster time.

I was playing with the numbers, adding Pos/Size (Position/Size of group) and then an AVG.HF (Average Hit Factor for the group)

It appears to me that:
The average Hit Factor showed better scores for the afternoon group.
For the most part, my Times & Hit Factors also improved in the afternoon, despite my accuracy remaining the same or slightly worse in the afternoon.
If these assessments are incorrect let me know where I screwed up.

Stage Times Two
Name No. Class Division | Points Pen. | Time |Hit Fact.|Stage Pt| Stage% |Pos/Size| Avg.HF
AM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 38 0 |11.38 |3.3392 | 37.7332 | 62.89% | 3/7 | 2.18
PM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 38 0 |10.3 |3.6893 | 59.5721 | 99.29% | 2/7 | 2.75


Stage Swinger First
Name No. Class Division | Points Pen. | Time |Hit Fact.|Stage Pt| Stage% |Pos/Size| Avg.HF
AM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 64 0 |17.58 |3.6405 | 53.9539 | 77.08% | 3/7 | 2.76
PM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 58 0 |14.66 |3.9563 | 63.8025 | 91.15% | 3/7 | 3.31
^This one I scored much higher in the AM (2 Alphas on the swinger!), but my speed was much quicker in the PM. iir I had a stovepipe in the am.

Stage Drop Turner
Name No. Class Division | Points Pen. | Time |Hit Fact.|Stage Pt| Stage% |Pos/Size| Avg.HF
AM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 24 10 |6.59 |2.1244 | 11.1233 | 31.78% | 5/7 | 2.45
PM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 23 0 |6.73 |3.4175 | 28.7068 | 82.02% | 2/7 | 2.74
^This one helps me understand how badly a penalty can affect Hit Factor

Stage Near to Far* (PM only. 2 DNS)
Name No. Class Division | Points Pen. | Time |Hit Fact.|Stage Pt| Stage% |Pos/Size| Avg.HF
PM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 28 0 |6.13 |4.5677 | 31.9202 | 79.80% | 2/5 | 3.6


Stage El Prez* (AM Only)
Name No. Class Division | Points Pen. | Time |Hit Fact.|Stage Pt| Stage% |Place/Size| Avg.HF
AM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 50 0 |10.82 |4.6211 | 50.4946 | 84.16% | 3/7 | 3.26

I have a little better understanding of the scoring, and how important TIME & Penalties can be. But I have no idea how you guys figure this stuff out BEFORE shooting a match.
Special Thanks to Rhino and RVB for their help!

 

[downrange72]

It's basically score/time...

You can shoot slow and deliberate and get all the points...for the sake of argument 50. Shoot it in 10 seconds....your hit factor is 5.0

50/10

Shoot it fast and drop some points....42 in 6 seconds your hit factor is 7

42/6

it all depends on the Course of Fire...there maybe 32 rounders with real close targets and little transitions...or 32 rounders with long or tight shots....the really good shooters will all be close in the overall time...then it boils down to how many points were dropped...you maybe 2-3 seconds slower than the fastest guy but have more alphas and win the stage.

In production, this has happened to me a few times...been 2nd or 3rd fastest and won the stage because of hits. I've also been the fastest and finished way down because of sloppy hits or mikes (believe me, me being the fastest is quite rare).

 

[rockhopper46038]

I admit I didn't understand the scoring either, and still am not certain how it works, but I had a great time in the class and think I might give this game a go.

 

[smith52]

Glad to hear you gave USPSA a go! It's a great group of people and always fun. Coach's classes are a great place to get introduced. Do not let scoring overwhelm you, the more you do it the easier it is to understand. Well it gets better anyway. Hope to see you both at a match soon.

 

[Grelber]

Coach - help please if you are out there.
You quoted a rule of thumb for points versus time down, something like 10 points is about 2 seconds???

For smaller minds like yours truly it is simpler to think in terms of only stage time during a match.

The thing I did remember is speed versus accuracy, something like "if you are shooting a lot of alpha Charlie's then your speed is about right, until you are competing at a very high level".

 

[kevinsr98]

Power factor also plays into it. If your shooting minor, shooting a "charlie" puts you 2 points down as opposed to the same hit in major being only 1 point down.

If you shoot "alpha, charlie" on every target in minor you probably won't win many stages, even if your times are fast.

But more important than the scoring or how you place, is that it's a lot of fun. So now that you got your feet wet, come on out to a match!

 

[Coach]

Hit Factor is your score on the stage. Points - penalties divided by time. It translates to points scored per second.

You cannot miss fast enough to win, and you can hit slow enough to still lose. You have to get hits on the same pace with everyone else in order to be competitive. If I am shooting major and I shoot an Alpha and a Charlie on each target then I have scored 90% of the points available, and that is about the right pace for my shooting ability at that time. If I want to be competitive in a major match then I am going to need more points than that, and probably more speed as well.

This system favors speed a little bit over points. Some will argue that is not the case, but score sheets say different.

If you are shooting minor such as in Production division you need more Alphas.

Stage points are earned on each stage. The high hit factor on that stage gets all the stage points. Every other hit factor earns a percentage of the stage points based on that Hit factors percentage of the high hit factor.

For example;
160 point stage

High Hit factor was 6.5667 so 160 stage points earned.
Second place was 5.4443 which is 83% of the high. 132.6 stage points earned.

All of the stage points are added up to determine the overall match winner.


Does this help?

When I teach my full day Comp 101 course we spend some time going over all of this and looking at examples. But I cannot put it all into a league with the time constraints. The scoring will get easier. Math is not my forte and I eventually got it. So will you guys.

 

[BillD]

There is a rule of thumb that says a penalty (10) pts costs around 2 seconds but that is totally dependent on the COF. 25-30 second 32 round field courses are a lot different than 60 rd speed shoots.

If you want to simplify things for yourself, you can look at it like this: if you are not shooting (shooting is where you get your points) you are wasting time. Do everything else as fast as you can and shoot at a speed that gives you the maximum points.

 

[Coach]

It appears to me that:
The average Hit Factor showed better scores for the afternoon group.
For the most part, my Times & Hit Factors also improved in the afternoon, despite my accuracy remaining the same or slightly worse in the afternoon.
If these assessments are incorrect let me know where I screwed up.

Stage Times Two
Name No. Class Division | Points Pen. | Time |Hit Fact.|Stage Pt| Stage% |Pos/Size| Avg.HF
AM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 38 0 |11.38 |3.3392 | 37.7332 | 62.89% | 3/7 | 2.18
PM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 38 0 |10.3 |3.6893 | 59.5721 | 99.29% | 2/7 | 2.75


QUOTE]

From this example note the same points shot by the shooter, but the time is faster and the hit factor better. Stage points will be different due to the different hit factor and because the high hit factor in these two session was different.

 

[Grelber]

Does this help?

It was indeed a valid effort and that is appreciated.

I think I'm going to go with 'about 10 for 2 for your average stage and really just try to suck less when you are shooting'. But if I see the o.p. at a match and he has a backpack with a mainframe computer I'm heading for his squad.

 

[rvb]

It appears to me that:
The average Hit Factor showed better scores for the afternoon group.

You're touching on one of the unique aspects of practical shooting... there is no "best" or "perfect" score in the game. Each match is unique (just as your am/pm matches were unique).

Your score is based on the competition that showed up that day since your stage points earned depends on who wins the stage. It's not like bullseye or highpower or trap, etc where there is a perfect score to strive for. So dont get discouraged starting out if your match % varies greatly from match to match. Your match % from match to match doesn't necessarily correlate to how well YOU shot, it relates to how well the top guy shot. You might shoot your first match and come in at 60%, and the next week come back, shoot much better, yet be at 40%. Your goal should always be to maximize HF in order to get as many stage points as you can against your competition.

As you shoot matches you can identify people you want to perform well against (ie "it's my goal to beat Joe Blow" or "I finished at 60% of Billy Bob's score so next month I want to finish at 65% of his score").

AM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 64 0 |17.58 |3.6405 | 53.9539 | 77.08% | 3/7 | 2.76
PM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 58 0 |14.66 |3.9563 | 63.8025 | 91.15% | 3/7 | 3.31
^This one I scored much higher in the AM (2 Alphas on the swinger!), but my speed was much quicker in the PM. iir I had a stovepipe in the am.

Your takeaway here should be how much 3 seconds to clear a malfunction hurt your HF... about 10%! Gear that runs 100% is crucial.

I have no idea how you guys figure this stuff out BEFORE shooting a match.

You don't really need to. The game plan never changes. Shoot accurately as fast as you can, and make that points/second hit-factor ratio as high as possible and let the points fall out on their own.



-rvb

 

[Birds Away]

I have shot USPSA twice now. I enjoyed both thoroughly. As for scoring, I am convinced it is done with a Ouja board.

 

[Rob377]

Hit factor = points/time (Hf=P/T)

Using that, you can figure out just how much time each point down is equivalent to, if you can guesstimate the Hit factor the stage should be.

T=P/Hf

Using El prez for example - It's a fast stand n shoot, the Hf should be around 10 +/-, so we can use that. We want to know what each point it worth, so P=1.

1/10=0.1 or P/Hf=T

Each Charlie for those shooting major is the equivalent of shooting it .1 slower. If you're shooting minor where a charlie is down 2 points, it's .2.

By way of example, shooting a perfect el prez for 60pts in 6 seconds gets you a Hf of 10. If you go a little faster but drop 2 points for 58 in 5.8 seconds, it's a Hf of 10. If you go super fast and shoot it in 4 seconds, you can get away with dropping 20 points for the same Hf of 10. 40/4=10.


For a longer field course, the likely HF will be a bit lower because it'll take more average time per shot because you're reloading, moving, and all that other fun stuff. On one of those sorts of stages, the likely Hf might be maybe 5 or 6. Using 5 as our guesstimated Hf:

1/5=0.2 (or 2/5=0.4 for minor)

 

[rvb]

In the AM class, I 'tried' to be deliberate & concentrate on hits. In the afternoon, I tried to push for faster time.

I really hestitated to go here considering you're so new to this, but I think it's an interesting revelation in perception... what we "try" to do vs what actually happens... we don't often get to see the same stage twice unless in a practice or training session like this.

Stage Times Two
Name No. Class Division | Points Pen. | Time
AM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 38 0 |11.38
PM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 38 0 |10.3

on this stage, you still shot the same points, even though you went a full second faster. Trying to be deliberate only resulted in a slower time! This is why I'm not a fan of the common advice to not worry about speed, "get your hits and the speed will come" stuff.... get your hits as quick as you can.

Stage Swinger First
Name No. Class Division | Points Pen. | Time
AM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 64 0 |17.58
PM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 58 0 |14.66

on this stage, if we take out 2.5-3s for the malfunction, you're times are just about identical, yet your points decreased when you "tried" to go faster!

Stage Drop Turner
Name No. Class Division | Points Pen. | Time
AM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 24 10 |6.59
PM RobbyMaQ 55 U Production | 23 0 |6.73 |

On this stage, you actually went a touch slower yet points were about the same on the run where you tried to go faster; you had a penalty (miss?) when trying to be deliberate.

I hope that's not bombarding you or resulting in "analysis paralysis," I know it was your first exposure so please dont think I'm picking on your results. I'm sure there were lots of things going on (additional jitters in the AM, weather changes, etc) that affect these scores.

But I always find it interesting how our perceptions of our shooting are not always reflected in the scores. That's why my advice is never to "try" to put the emphasis on either speed or accuracy, but to just shoot, and make your hits as quickly as your skill allows.

-rvb

 

[jakemartens]

If you want to simplify things for yourself, you can look at it like this: if you are not shooting (shooting is where you get your points) you are wasting time. Do everything else as fast as you can and shoot at a speed that gives you the maximum points.

If you are a new shooter this is all that I would tell you to worry about.

Do not try to get caught up in what the hit factor is going to be on stage or what this or that is going to cost me

you need to focus on shooting at a speed where YOU can get the max points for YOU and do everything else as quick as YOU can do them safely.

and while you are doing this video tape yourself and some others that are more experienced shooting the same division on your squad and compare what they did to what you did and see where they are faster

most of it is going to come from
stage breakdown
foot speed
shooting on the move
efficient movement
transitions
reloads

As new shooters you should work on stage breakdown and understanding how to shoot a stage the most efficient way

 

[bwframe]

If you are a new shooter this is all that I would tell you to worry about.

Do not try to get caught up in what the hit factor is going to be on stage or what this or that is going to cost me

you need to focus on shooting at a speed where YOU can get the max points for YOU and do everything else as quick as YOU can do them safely.

and while you are doing this video tape yourself and some others that are more experienced shooting the same division on your squad and compare what they did to what you did and see where they are faster

most of it is going to come from
stage breakdown
foot speed
shooting on the move
efficient movement
transitions
reloads

As new shooters you should work on stage breakdown and understanding how to shoot a stage the most efficient way

Yep, work on gun handling, movement, gun handling.
You can play with the bean counters later, when the score sheets actually show that you are competing.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

Thanks all! Everyone's been a tremendous help, with lot's of good advice.
While I was curious how the hits vs time inter-related, I am certainly in the mindset that I need to just worry about shooting as fast and as accurately as I safely can. I will try not to let my mind get too preoccupied with the numbers.

Now to just get to an event sometime...

 

[downrange72]

Hit factor = points/time (Hf=P/T)

Using that, you can figure out just how much time each point down is equivalent to, if you can guesstimate the Hit factor the stage should be.

T=P/Hf

Using El prez for example - It's a fast stand n shoot, the Hf should be around 10 +/-, so we can use that. We want to know what each point it worth, so P=1.

1/10=0.1 or P/Hf=T

Each Charlie for those shooting major is the equivalent of shooting it .1 slower. If you're shooting minor where a charlie is down 2 points, it's .2.

By way of example, shooting a perfect el prez for 60pts in 6 seconds gets you a Hf of 10. If you go a little faster but drop 2 points for 58 in 5.8 seconds, it's a Hf of 10. If you go super fast and shoot it in 4 seconds, you can get away with dropping 20 points for the same Hf of 10. 40/4=10.


For a longer field course, the likely HF will be a bit lower because it'll take more average time per shot because you're reloading, moving, and all that other fun stuff. On one of those sorts of stages, the likely Hf might be maybe 5 or 6. Using 5 as our guesstimated Hf:

1/5=0.2 (or 2/5=0.4 for minor)

You should have been an engineer. My head is hurting from the over"anal"izing.

Shoot All Alphas as fast as you can. Do everything else really fast.

 

[Rob377]

You should have been an engineer. My head is hurting from the over"anal"izing.

Shoot All Alphas as fast as you can. Do everything else really fast.

I do have a partially finished app to Purdue's ME program for 2014....

 

[CB45]

Thanks all! Everyone's been a tremendous help, with lot's of good advice.
While I was curious how the hits vs time inter-related, I am certainly in the mindset that I need to just worry about shooting as fast and as accurately as I safely can. I will try not to let my mind get too preoccupied with the numbers.

Now to just get to an event sometime...

That's a smart and safe plan. See ya on the range!