My 1st attempt at understanding USPSA scoring

[bwframe]

...Now to just get to an event sometime...

Here you go:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/shooting_sports/302407-scgc_july_match.html

 

[Grelber]

I do have a partially finished app to Purdue's ME program for 2014....

Doesn't help (BSEE).

I think the equations and uncertainty principles ("60% is a good score if Schrodingers cat is having a bad hair day") were derived from quantum mechanics though, so maybe if you did something with theoretical physics.

 

[sv40sw45]

In my 30 years of shooting USPSA I have NEVER considered the Hit Factor on any stage. My only concern is to shoot the stage a fast and accurate as I can. Every stage is different and you will have to find your own comfort zone.

 

[rvb]

Doesn't help (BSEE).

I think the equations and uncertainty principles ("60% is a good score if Schrodingers cat is having a bad hair day") were derived from quantum mechanics though, so maybe if you did something with theoretical physics.

I always thought Heisenberg could easily be applied to our shooting sports. we cannot simultaneously measure our speed and accuracy... Our potential for accuracy cannot be measured w/o affecting our speed and vice versa...

The math is hard because we are trying to defy a principal of physics.

-rvb

 

[RobbyMaQ]

Here you go:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/shooting_sports/302407-scgc_july_match.html

I wonder if 'Scutter' will be there?!

Can't make one for a few weeks due to holiday plans & vacation upcoming.
I will make it to one soon. Expect it... when you least expect it!

 

[BROBERTS]

You should have been an engineer. My head is hurting from the over"anal"izing.

Ryan over think something!! never

 

[downrange72]

Ryan over think something!! never

LOL...I have told Ryan that too....This time I was referring to Rob

If I start worrying about statistical significance and confidence intervals, I'll just quit ...

Shoot Alphas as fast as you can...do everything else as fast as you can...summed up...no math (in my case, embrace the suck)

 

[rvb]

You should have been an engineer.

Ryan over think something!! never

LOL...I have told Ryan that too....This time I was referring to Rob

I'm allowed, I already am an engineer (would rather be the kind that drives trains, that sounds more fun).

In my 30 years of shooting USPSA I have NEVER considered the Hit Factor on any stage. My only concern is to shoot the stage a fast and accurate as I can. Every stage is different and you will have to find your own comfort zone.

ditto. my "anal"izing comes after the fact as I review the scores. I usually look at things like my % of points shot, figure if I made smart decisions under the clock (eg should I have reloaded and made up that mike), look at scores from someone who had a different plan and understand which was better, etc... so hopefully the next time I can apply the lessons....

-rvb

 

[HICKMAN]

I have shot USPSA twice now. I enjoyed both thoroughly. As for scoring, I am convinced it is done with a Ouja board.

dang, I've been doing it the hard way!

 

[jakemartens]

In my 30 years of shooting USPSA I have NEVER considered the Hit Factor on any stage. My only concern is to shoot the stage a fast and accurate as I can. Every stage is different and you will have to find your own comfort zone.

I do not have 30 years in, but I am with Max on this, I have never either, or even thought about what a good time would be on a stage.
There have been a few times were at big matches when the scores are posted from the previous days shooters I will look at the times and try to get a good idea, and everytime I have have done this I have had a **** match, trying to make myself do something.
Now I do not look, cause it is not going to change or effect how well I can shoot a stage.
I just go and shoot and what ever happens happens

 

[riverman67]

If I have to start doing equations to shoot a match....I quit.
I just attempt to do things as efficiently as I can. Get good hits in the quickest way I can.
It even works sometimes.
If I coud find some time to shoot I might even improve a little.

 

[downrange72]

If I have to start doing equations to shoot a match....I quit.
I just attempt to do things as efficiently as I can. Get good hits in the quickest way I can.
It even works sometimes.
If I coud find some time to shoot I might even improve a little.

heh...I hear ya

 

[Rob377]

on this stage, you still shot the same points, even though you went a full second faster. Trying to be deliberate only resulted in a slower time! This is why I'm not a fan of the common advice to not worry about speed, "get your hits and the speed will come" stuff.... get your hits as quick as you can.

...

-rvb

Ben Stoeger said as much in his podcast today, albeit in more colorful terms.

http://benstoeger.com/joomla30/media/com_podcastmanager/7-4-13.mp3

In my own shooting journey, I've found that to be true.

 

[Fourtrax]

I have a little better understanding of the scoring, and how important TIME & Penalties can be. But I have no idea how you guys figure this stuff out BEFORE shooting a match.
Special Thanks to Rhino and RVB for their help![/I]

Well, if I'm reading this correct, no one has answered your question. You want to know how Coach or Rhino or an experienced shooter, say a M or GM can look at a stage and know the HIgh HF, at least real close to it? That's experience brother.

Basically once you understand the scoring and how HF is obtained, which I think you do, you got to know yourself. You have to know what your times are going to be for the various parts of the stage you are looking at. Your for your draw to various distances as an example. You have to know how long it takes you to move to the various shooting points of the stage. You have to know you. Once you know all that, its just plug and play.

I got a simple stage.
Start with toes on x's, move to the right and at the end of the wall, engage 3 easy targets, 3sec. Next move to the left and down a hallway with ports on each side. Closest port is on right and takes me 2 sec to get there and 2 sec to roll through and engage 2 targets. Next port is a couple steps and on the left and takes me 1 sec to get there and 2 sec to roll through engaging 2 targets. On down the hall to a half wall with 3 targets hidden behind it. Takes me 3 sec to get there and 1 sec to engage all targets ( muzzle distance). Next up is a Texas Star 17 yards behind the half wall. 5 sec to engage those 5 plates on the Texas Star.


This is a 125pt course of fire and I'm gonna run it in 20 seconds, HF=125/20 or 6.25 HF. I know this because I've taken the time to run all this information down in practice. I know fairly close anyway, how long each little segment is gonna take. I also know that a GM is about 15% more efficient than me. So, a GM is gonna run it in about 17 sec for a HF of 7.35.

Sooooo, that's how Coach and others of his skill level can figure HF for a stage before even shooting it. It is all based on info and times that they have studied in practice or obtained through years of trial and error.

Hope that helps. Personally, I never figure it out. I have never seen the point. I'm gonna shoot the stage to the best of my ability and the HF is gonna be what it is. However, knowing how long something takes, whether shooting or moving, really helps you figure the most efficient way to shoot a stage. Knowing that at 17yards on 3 targets I'm better rushing the forward fault line and shooting them at 4 yards then standing at 17 and shooting them, is stage winning info.

As a hint, you need to find your "break over" distance. that distance where, for you, it's almost always better to sprint close and shoot, then stand back and shoot.

Hope this helped. Lots of info here.

 

[rvb]

Well, if I'm reading this correct, no one has answered your question. You want to know how Coach or Rhino or an experienced shooter, say a M or GM can look at a stage and know the HIgh HF, at least real close to it

I think we just about all answered by saying "we don't do that..."

-rvb

You don't really need to. The game plan never changes. Shoot accurately as fast as you can, and make that points/second hit-factor ratio as high as possible and let the points fall out on their own.

Do not try to get caught up in what the hit factor is going to be on stage or what this or that is going to cost me

You can play with the bean counters later, when the score sheets actually show that you are competing.

In my 30 years of shooting USPSA I have NEVER considered the Hit Factor on any stage.

I do not have 30 years in, but I am with Max on this, I have never either, or even thought about what a good time would be on a stage.
...
I just go and shoot and what ever happens happens

 

[Fourtrax]

Funny, I don't do that either, but he kinda wanted the "how", so I gave it. I guess there are some analytical types that want and need that info in order to make things right in their heads. Maybe he is one, who knows?

Hope it helped!

 

[rvb]

Funny, I don't do that either, but he kinda wanted the "how", so I gave it. I guess there are some analytical types that want and need that info in order to make things right in their heads. Maybe he is one, who knows?

Hope it helped!

I'm usually one of those guys!

There was a point in time as I was transitioning into uspsa from that other game, moving up through the classes in a couple of different divisions, soaking in everything I could to try to make myself better, reading too much voodoo on the enos forums, etc where I thought I could affect my shooting by knowing the HF. I never calculated it all out like in your example, but I'd guestimate, or look at other scores from comprable shooters, etc. I might have looked at a stage like "Can you count" and thought "holy crap, the HF is huge on this, I have to go FAST to win it, a few points be damned!"..... but you know what? ... everyone's time is fast on that course, so dropping some As matters. I could come up w/ more examples, but the gist is that I learned that you have to shoot accurately, as fast as possible, regardless of the course of fire.

My current belief (maybe someday I'll come back here and again post about "what I used to believe....") is that the better speed/accuracy trade off has more to do with distance/difficulty. You and I discussed this when we had our most-As bet, and the over-aiming that resulted on the long targets. I find ensuring an A hit on a 25+yd target takes up more time than the points are worth so I would rather break the shot when I'm fairly confident in a C-or-better hit and get on with the stage than fine tune to an A-zone sight picture. Conversely, if the targets are close and easy, I should be getting all As because the time it takes to get that A isn't really any greater than the time it takes to hit the C or D zone.

It seems like a great theory, but the temptations are strong to go too fast and get sloppy on the close stuff as well as to over-aim the hard stuff. I'll let you know if I ever successfully implement it!

-rvb

 

[RobbyMaQ]

It all helps. I'm not a super analytical type. Coach provided us with scores, so I began comparing my morning times with my afternoon times (and of course with other shooters) to get a sense of it all.

Coach also had made a comment during class, where he skipped a drop turner all together, briefly explaining that it would have taken more time to hit it when compared to no penalty for skipping it. This is one of the reasons I made the comment about 'figuring it all about before shooting a match'.

Because of the responses in this thread, and because hindsight is 20/20 I've realized getting out there and shooting matches, as quickly and as accurately as I can, is what will give me the experience to personally gauge how to approach a match. Hopefully soon I will begin that process.

Much like watching and learning from other shooters at such a match, the responses here have all helped, I can assure you.

 

[Grelber]

So , you folks don't plan out stuff like points versus time lost on this or that disappearing target ?

Edit - Never mind the post above beat me to it

 

[rvb]

Coach also had made a comment during class, where he skipped a drop turner all together, briefly explaining that it would have taken more time to hit it when compared to no penalty for skipping it. This is one of the reasons I made the comment about 'figuring it all about before shooting a match'.

So , you folks don't plan out stuff like points versus time lost on this or that disappearing target ?

I'll answer that by pointing here:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/shooting_sports/300795-moving_targets.html

Even when we make those decisions, it's usually based on an estimate/average/rule-of-thumb HF or from looking at other shooter's scores. Most folks (there may be a few out there), don't first calculate a HF for that stage, then do the calculations on whether to take a target. back-of-the-napkin stuff for the most part... also somewhat dependant on each person's preference on how to approach such scenarios.

-rvb