My Oath is still valid

[BugI02]

That's not the same at all. The president can set the overall direction of the service branches. In theory if he simply changed the respective code within the UCMJ so that no other soldier would ever be liable for the same transgressions, then he could avoid criticisms. In this instance, he made an exception for one soldier.

You mean like Obama did for the Manning thing?

 

[BugI02]

I honestly took that line as referencing Trump.

I'm shocked, shocked I say!

You could probably just ask Hough what he meant. He doesn't (usually) bite

 

[HoughMade]

I thought the context was obvious.

Trump took an action he, as President, had the authority to take.

Spencer disagrees, think's it's unwise, and tries to act as though he is "resigning" because he can't "in good conscience" (heaven forfend) follow such an order. He, obviously, in my book, was trying to make a moral equivalence between not following this LEGAL order and not following an ILLEGAL order which is the duty of everyone who ever took the oath. That is his luxury as an appointed civilian.

Spencer is acting like his opinions/policy position/belief is equivalent to law and going against that is the same as an "illegal" order.

If he doesn't feel he can serve under Trump because he believes Trumps legal orders are wrong, he absolutely is doing the right thing by resigning.

 

[T.Lex]

I think there's a wrinkle that is omitted from that scenario.

The SEAL in question broke the UCMJ. Broke the law. That has consequences. Consequences that were to be resolved in the discipline board.

Trump interfering with that allows the breach of law to go undisciplined. That, to someone who clearly holds military discipline in high regard, would act to violate the oath as it relates to supporting and defending the constitution. I haven't read where he says Trump's interference is illegal.

Here's the letter.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/24/poli...richard-spencer-resignation-letter/index.html

I don't see where it accuses the POTUS of an illegal order. I can infer where it says the POTUS's order does not "support and defend" the constitution.

Those are different things.

If he has said something outside that letter suggesting that the order is illegal, a link would be helpful.

 

[HoughMade]

You mean like Obama did for the Manning thing?

It's almost like he had the power to pardon crimes or something.

So if we're going to compare....and I agree that Obama had that power....let's contrast:

Manning- being placed in a position of trust, stole classified information knowing it would be made public.

Gallagher- posed with the body of an enemy of the United States (has anyone explained to any WWII vets what his conviction was for?)

 

[HoughMade]

I think there's a wrinkle that is omitted from that scenario.

The SEAL in question broke the UCMJ. Broke the law. That has consequences. Consequences that were to be resolved in the discipline board.

Trump interfering with that allows the breach of law to go undisciplined. That, to someone who clearly holds military discipline in high regard, would act to violate the oath as it relates to supporting and defending the constitution. I haven't read where he says Trump's interference is illegal.

Here's the letter.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/24/poli...richard-spencer-resignation-letter/index.html

I don't see where it accuses the POTUS of an illegal order. I can infer where it says the POTUS's order does not "support and defend" the constitution.

Those are different things.

If he has said something outside that letter suggesting that the order is illegal, a link would be helpful.

I never said that Spencer specifically stated the order was illegal. In fact, I carefully explained that he was trying to portray his actions as the moral equivalence to refusing to obey an illegal order...which means it was not actually the refusal to obey an illegal order.

They wisdom of Trump's actions can be debated. That Spencer is trying to show himself a martyr is utterly predictable for virtually ANY person politically savvy enough to rise to the level of Secretary of the Navy.

 

[Kutnupe14]

You mean like Obama did for the Manning thing?

So if we're going to compare....and I agree that Obama had that power....let's contrast:

Manning- being placed in a position of trust, stole classified information knowing it would be made public.

Gallagher- posed with the body of an enemy of the United States (has anyone explained to any WWII vets what his conviction was for?)

I'm really confused how you guys are making the comparison:

-Manning had reduction in rank, dishonorable discharge, and 7 years confinement
Obama's very own words "it makes sense to commute—and not pardon—her sentence."

I don't see it as comparable at all. Further, Trump intervened in the cases of Clinton's Lorance and Matthew Golsteyn, both also accused of war crimes, and more significantly reported to the authorities by the soldiers they served with. IMO, while acknowledging the right of the president to do so, it sends a very bad message. A president pardoning alleged war crimes? That's a bad look. We expect more from our military.

 

[KG1]

Speaking of oaths:

Originally Posted by Former Secretary of the Navy Richard Spencer
I cannot in good conscience obey an order that I believe violates the sacred oath I took in the presence of my family, my flag and my faith to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.


The President deserves and should expect a Secretary of the Navy who is aligned with his vision for the future of our force generation and sustainment.

Seems to me by the very nature of Spencer's statement it has the implication that Trump violated the sacred oath he took to support and defend the Constitution of the United States by giving the order.

And another thing about undermining the UCMJ. Did Sec. Spencer have anything to say about the alleged unethical tactics that JAG was accused of perpetrating against Gallagher and his defense counsel?

If those allegations are true then it seems to me that would definitely serve to undermine the UCMJ.

 

[T.Lex]

Seems to me by the very nature of Spencer's statement it has the implication that Trump violated the sacred oath he took to support and defend the Constitution of the United States by giving the order.

It does appear that he held that view. At least that's what he says.

Its strange, though, because it also sounds like he was willing to go along with a plan to let Gallagher retire as a SEAL, which is what it sounds like will happen.

The truth may be closer to the reports that Esper was really pissed that he was left out of Spencer's dealings with Trump officials.

And another thing about undermining the UCMJ. Did Sec. Spencer have anything to say about the alleged unethical tactics that JAG was accused of perpetrating against Gallagher and his defense counsel?

If those allegations are true then it seems to me that would definitely serve to undermine the UCMJ.

It is unclear whether Spencer followed the order or recommended the implementation, but he did rescind awards to the prosecutors.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/n...ecutors-in-navy-seal-court-martial/ar-AAF8Rrv

 

[BugI02]

Seems to me by the very nature of Spencer's statement it has the implication that Trump violated the sacred oath he took to support and defend the Constitution of the United States by giving the order.

And another thing about undermining the UCMJ. Did Sec. Spencer have anything to say about the alleged unethical tactics that JAG was accused of perpetrating against Gallagher and his defense counsel?

If those allegations are true then it seems to me that would definitely serve to undermine the UCMJ.

Only Trump is capable of doing bad things, all other players must be given the benefit of the doubt

 

[KG1]

It does appear that he held that view. At least that's what he says.

Its strange, though, because it also sounds like he was willing to go along with a plan to let Gallagher retire as a SEAL, which is what it sounds like will happen.

The truth may be closer to the reports that Esper was really pissed that he was left out of Spencer's dealings with Trump officials.



It is unclear whether Spencer followed the order or recommended the implementation, but he did rescind awards to the prosecutors.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/n...ecutors-in-navy-seal-court-martial/ar-AAF8Rrv

It is strange because Spencer initially refuted the claim he was threatening to resign over the Gallagher order as was reported.