New IDPA rules

[sbcman]

Thinking about the reloading stuff makes my head hurty too, I'm going to save that pain till after all is said and done.
Saw where a 150 pf was proposed for esr, I think I like 150 with a 200 grain or lighter bullet but with a 230 grain I'm not sure that 652 fps makes for a viable self defense load???

I have to confess that I have been more than a little embarassed by some of the whining going on by my ESR brothers on other forums. They are the ones calling for 150pf and are flat out and that it hasn't changed. I tried to explain on one forum that when I went to nats I was running 230gr FMJ American Eagle that made----181pf---and that is a 45acp practice load. 150pf doesn't even come close to ANY 45 factory round, unless it's some bunny load for cowboys.

I just don't have a problem with 165pf. I tested the loads I'm using for the MO match over the chrony yesterday and they averaged 177pf. I do not believe my performance on a course would be aided or inhibited by a 150pf load against 177pf. ESR is the man's division of IDPA- man guns, man loads. I think folks should just man up and get over it! If they want to shoot revo with a girly PF, they can go to SSR

 

[DustyDawg48]

Besides being a good idea there is a definite cool factor. The master that normally beats everyone else (hence forth to be referred to as the master beater, or MB for short) lost his front optic at Lewisport and then just calmly walked to his truck and grabbed an identical gun. That is just neat.

Thinking about the reloading stuff makes my head hurty too, I'm going to save that pain till after all is said and done.
Saw where a 150 pf was proposed for esr, I think I like 150 with a 200 grain or lighter bullet but with a 230 grain I'm not sure that 652 fps makes for a viable self defense load???

I never fully intended it to work out, but the guns I shoot in IDPA, I've always managed to end up liking them so much that I'd grab a 2nd version of them... M&P9 and 9c, 2 Glock 21 plus a G30 and my newest is a G19 to compliment my G34. I haven't had a gun actually break on me but I have had an ammo issue a time or two. I've found the bad headstamp brass that has caused me fits and the odd mag that won't feed correctly now I just need to sort out an Oh Crap Kit with a few springs and other things to have with me and I'll be set. If I can still swing going to the match in October I'll have both Glock 21 with me.

 

[sbcman]

I never fully intended it to work out, but the guns I shoot in IDPA, I've always managed to end up liking them so much that I'd grab a 2nd version of them... M&P9 and 9c, 2 Glock 21 plus a G30 and my newest is a G19 to compliment my G34. I haven't had a gun actually break on me but I have had an ammo issue a time or two. I've found the bad headstamp brass that has caused me fits and the odd mag that won't feed correctly now I just need to sort out an Oh Crap Kit with a few springs and other things to have with me and I'll be set. If I can still swing going to the match in October I'll have both Glock 21 with me.

One of the great things about IDPA is that a guy can have a gun go down during a course and the rules are fashioned in such a way that the match is not lost because of it. Just grab the back-up gun and let the good times roll.

I think it was Jeff who had a STI or something like that break during a classifier. You'd be to get two identical STIs, but with a main being a STI and then having a plastic gun as back-up, it wouldn't be too hard on the wallet. Some other guy had a Glock go into autosear mode and couldn't finish because that's the only gun he had. Just makes good sense to me to have a couple on match day. I hope they put the "same caliber/action" rule back in for secondary guns.

 

[DustyDawg48]

I have to confess that I have been more than a little embarassed by some of the whining going on by my ESR brothers on other forums. They are the ones calling for 150pf and are flat out and that it hasn't changed. I tried to explain on one forum that when I went to nats I was running 230gr FMJ American Eagle that made----181pf---and that is a 45acp practice load. 150pf doesn't even come close to ANY 45 factory round, unless it's some bunny load for cowboys.

I just don't have a problem with 165pf. I tested the loads I'm using for the MO match over the chrony yesterday and they averaged 177pf. I do not believe my performance on a course would be aided or inhibited by a 150pf load against 177pf. ESR is the man's division of IDPA- man guns, man loads. I think folks should just man up and get over it! If they want to shoot revo with a girly PF, they can go to SSR

In ESR aren't most shooting .45 ACP anyway? You'd almost need 165pf to make sure it gets out of the end of the barrel. One of the PowerFactorShow guys talks about him having to rework his .45 ACP CDP load because he wasn't making power in his revolver.

 

[DustyDawg48]

One of the great things about IDPA is that a guy can have a gun go down during a course and the rules are fashioned in such a way that the match is not lost because of it. Just grab the back-up gun and let the good times roll.

I think it was Jeff who had a STI or something like that break during a classifier. You'd be to get two identical STIs, but with a main being a STI and then having a plastic gun as back-up, it wouldn't be too hard on the wallet. Some other guy had a Glock go into autosear mode and couldn't finish because that's the only gun he had. Just makes good sense to me to have a couple on match day. I hope they put the "same caliber/action" rule back in for secondary guns.

Sound advice. My carry gun is either my IDPA gun or a version of it. I'll carry the 21 or the 30 when I shoot CDP and the new G19 is for when I decide to work on SSP.

 

[rvb]

Just curious, what would you like to see or not see that would lead you to renew?

well, I'm hesitant to really get into it on the open forum... here's a couple of less controversial thoughts...

the rules are still very subjective, not objective. still no allowance for fault lines, still using muzzle safe points, still making the SO judge cover calls. The location of the SO to the shooter makes a tremendous difference in the calls they make.

the rules blatently weigh against more advanced shooters. If you're slow enough you get warnings, if you're fast enough you get penalties. Not a fair/equal contest when you're allowing coaching (on how to comply to a subjective ruling) to some but not others.

it's choreographed to the level of a broadway musical and you win by knowing the dance moves. this is especially true now that round dumping is allowed combined with the rules on when you can start a RL. (If round dumping is allowed then they might as well allow speed reloads, it would be a safer way to get to the same result. I can put several extra rounds into the berm faster than I can do a tac load or rwr.) When you can reload and when you can't keeps changing; and they sound reasonable on paper but for some stage designs the rules just dont make sense. They could solve that by stripping all that from the rules and allowing the stage brief to describe where a reload must be performed... they want everyone to shoot things the same way anyway, just spell it out.

The divisions are a waste. ESP/SSP should just be combined, more so now that the weights are the same. For a game "not about equipment," a lot of hand-wringing happens over equipment rules that just dont matter. CDP could still be different just due to the capacity difference. However, they could even get rid of CDP if they went w/ something like [gasp!] USPSA's Single-Stack rules where major gets .5s per point down w/ 7 or 8 round capacity and minor gets 1s down w/ 10 round capacity. Imagine the fun of ALL semi-autos playing together, w/ the power-factor/capacity choice! The fact that no one division currently dominates the HOA is the clue that there is no real difference in the divisions.

the destinguished master class is a joke, placating the egos of some masters who just couldn't place well at majors and allowing more "1st place" trophies to be handed out; there shouldn't be a classification you can ONLY earn at a nationals, IMO. It was put in place because people were too chicken-sht to actually compete against vogel/sevigny/miculek/etc and wanted them out of the equation.

They touted this re-write as a major update to the rules... I didn't see any significant improvements, just slightly different controveries brewing. I remember being at the 2007 Nats with the FTDR/round-dumping controversy... what happens now if people start dumping 6 rounds to get to slide lock? Is that against the "code of conduct" or "principals?" Is it "fair?" What will the ruling be and how many gigs of bandwidth will be spent discussing it?

We can talk off line about my more controversial thoughts....

-rvb

 

[sbcman]

well, I'm hesitant to really get into it on the open forum... here's a couple of less controversial thoughts...

the rules are still very subjective, not objective. still no allowance for fault lines, still using muzzle safe points, still making the SO judge cover calls. The location of the SO to the shooter makes a tremendous difference in the calls they make.

the rules blatently weigh against more advanced shooters. If you're slow enough you get warnings, if you're fast enough you get penalties. Not a fair/equal contest when you're allowing coaching (on how to comply to a subjective ruling) to some but not others.

it's choreographed to the level of a broadway musical and you win by knowing the dance moves. this is especially true now that round dumping is allowed combined with the rules on when you can start a RL. (If round dumping is allowed then they might as well allow speed reloads, it would be a safer way to get to the same result. I can put several extra rounds into the berm faster than I can do a tac load or rwr.) When you can reload and when you can't keeps changing; and they sound reasonable on paper but for some stage designs the rules just dont make sense. They could solve that by stripping all that from the rules and allowing the stage brief to describe where a reload must be performed... they want everyone to shoot things the same way anyway, just spell it out.

The divisions are a waste. ESP/SSP should just be combined, more so now that the weights are the same. For a game "not about equipment," a lot of hand-wringing happens over equipment rules that just dont matter. CDP could still be different just due to the capacity difference. However, they could even get rid of CDP if they went w/ something like [gasp!] USPSA's Single-Stack rules where major gets .5s per point down w/ 7 or 8 round capacity and minor gets 1s down w/ 10 round capacity. Imagine the fun of ALL semi-autos playing together, w/ the power-factor/capacity choice! The fact that no one division currently dominates the HOA is the clue that there is no real difference in the divisions.

the destinguished master class is a joke, placating the egos of some masters who just couldn't place well at majors and allowing more "1st place" trophies to be handed out; there shouldn't be a classification you can ONLY earn at a nationals, IMO. It was put in place because people were too chicken-sht to actually compete against vogel/sevigny/miculek/etc and wanted them out of the equation.

They touted this re-write as a major update to the rules... I didn't see any significant improvements, just slightly different controveries brewing. I remember being at the 2007 Nats with the FTDR/round-dumping controversy... what happens now if people start dumping 6 rounds to get to slide lock? Is that against the "code of conduct" or "principals?" Is it "fair?" What will the ruling be and how many gigs of bandwidth will be spent discussing it?

We can talk off line about my more controversial thoughts....

-rvb

I see where you're coming from. Without fault lines, calls are going to be subjective. Of course, I've got issues with SOs calling cover when their eyes should be on the gun anyway- better job for the score keeper IMO.

I, too, am a little concerned about the round dumping business. It doesn't affect me personally because I shoot revolver and all stages are limited for me But, I can see a lot of bullets going everywhere and that's not a good thing. Ted Murphy has started a thread with this concern on the IDPA forum.

As for DM's, I don't see why IDPA couldn't do something like USPSA's GM. Set the classifier for DM times and they all play together like any other class. Would also give folks a chance to get DM if they couldn't make nationals. I haven't seen it in the new book, but in the old book you could make DM if you came within 3% of the DC's score Never understood that one either.

 

[DustyDawg48]

I see where you're coming from. Without fault lines, calls are going to be subjective. Of course, I've got issues with SOs calling cover when their eyes should be on the gun anyway- better job for the score keeper IMO.

I, too, am a little concerned about the round dumping business. It doesn't affect me personally because I shoot revolver and all stages are limited for me But, I can see a lot of bullets going everywhere and that's not a good thing. Ted Murphy has started a thread with this concern on the IDPA forum.

As for DM's, I don't see why IDPA couldn't do something like USPSA's GM. Set the classifier for DM times and they all play together like any other class. Would also give folks a chance to get DM if they couldn't make nationals. I haven't seen it in the new book, but in the old book you could make DM if you came within 3% of the DC's score Never understood that one either.

About the concern with excessive extra rounds, you'd have to think that even with the best splits available, dumping more than 3 extra rounds isn't going to net you much advantage to put that many rounds downrange and do an emergency reload as opposed to pushing through to the next array of targets and dropping only one or two extra shots. Unless you are made of money and don't mind doing that, I can't see where they are going to see that many cases of people shooting 7 rounds at a particular target so they can go to slide-lock.

 

[Grelber]

I just don't have a problem with 165pf. I tested the loads I'm using for the MO match over the chrony yesterday and they averaged 177pf. I do not believe my performance on a course would be aided or inhibited by a 150pf load against 177pf. ESR is the man's division of IDPA- man guns, man loads. I think folks should just man up and get over it! If they want to shoot revo with a girly PF, they can go to SSR

After giving that matter further consideration, heck, whatever works for you is fine with me. If there was not an ssr option it would be different.

Shot practice qualifiers this week (the Scott H theory, if you shoot a qualifier you have pretty much practiced all the common skill stuff) with 180 pf 40 cal, about 170 pf 45 and about 130 pf 9mm. Can't say that caliber made any hard data difference to my scores but the 9mm felt like it was less work and had more potential for improvement, the data ain't there for me though.

 

[jakemartens]

About the concern with excessive extra rounds, you'd have to think that even with the best splits available, dumping more than 3 extra rounds isn't going to net you much advantage to put that many rounds downrange and do an emergency reload as opposed to pushing through to the next array of targets and dropping only one or two extra shots. Unless you are made of money and don't mind doing that, I can't see where they are going to see that many cases of people shooting 7 rounds at a particular target so they can go to slide-lock.

I can dump rounds faster and do a standing reload faster

and now that round dumping and standing reloads are the way to go watch me do it

7 round mags in cdp, round dumping and slide lock reloads....

 

[sbcman]

I can dump rounds faster and do a standing reload faster

and now that round dumping and standing reloads are the way to go watch me do it

7 round mags in cdp, round dumping and slide lock reloads....

That's the spirit!

 

[sbcman]

After giving that matter further consideration, heck, whatever works for you is fine with me.

And really, that's what it comes down to- what load do you shoot the best? I've noticed with my 625s that something changes in the recoil around 174-175pf. The guns starts to push more than the muzzle flips, which makes sense as you're gaining a lb or so in recoil over 165. I like that push better than the flip, which is why I don't mind the power floors as they are.

 

[jakemartens]

That's the spirit!

Well it certainly looks like it is now.
Three mags to reload with what is to stop me.