Not Quite Right

[Route 45]

Y'all can do what you want. I do not pay your bills.

I HIGHLY suggest education, from experts, on the legal system. It'll cure a lot of ignorance.

Or cause a lot of second-guessing, ending up in failure to act that gets you or your loved ones killed. Lots of cops killed because they failed to act soon enough and aggressive enough. Deputy Kyle Dinkheller comes to mind. A man either knows how to protect himself and his loved ones, or he doesn't. There is no "what if" in my mind if someone breaks into my home and I identify them as a threat. You can do what you want, based on how much you value your loved ones' lives.

 

[Thor]

If someone breaks into my home they have already identified themselves as a threat.

 

[Tactically Fat]

I don't think I've seen advocacy on INGO for indiscriminate blasting at shadows in the living room.

If you cross my threshold uninvited ... someone will take what's left of you out in bags and buckets. It's not my responsibility to ascertain why you are present.

The prosecution rests, your honor.

 

[Route 45]

The prosecution rests, your honor.

Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[thelefthand]

The prosecution rests, your honor.

[FONT=&amp](Defense): Your Honor, Indiana Code 35-41-3-2 states that, “a person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person and does not have a duty to retreat…if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person’s unlawful entry of or attack on the person’s dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.” Being as the suspect unlawfully entered the defendants dwelling while the defendant was occupying it, we move that this case be dismissed.[/FONT]

(Judge): Motion granted, case dismissed.

Route 45 is exactly correct. If you do the research you will find that one of the few times a well trained, properly equipped individual looses a gunfight is when they start second guessing whether or not they should use deadly force. The idea that a person will maintain calm composure and a rational thought process when their adrenaline kicks in is a bunch of PC nonsense. If the fear of legal consequences guides your actions against a legitimate lethal threat, your odds of survival are drastically decreased. Have a weapon light or two, learn to use them, IDENTIFY THE THREAT, and stop the threat.

 

[Doug]

Gee, I sure hope the police stop doing no-knock warrants.

 

[thelefthand]

Gee, I sure hope the police stop doing no-knock warrants.

I'm summarizing this story which was told to me by the owner of our local range who is also a close personal friend. Forgive me in advance if some details are slightly off.

A group of state police detectives did some training at our local range a few years ago. The range owner was allowed to observe, and was impressed by their proficiency relative to many other officers he's had on the range. At one point the instructor asked the owner what would happen if this team of law enforcement officers knocked on his front door in the middle of the night to serve a warrant. The range owner replied that he would have no choice but to open the door and comply with the warrant. The instructor then asked what would happen if that same team, instead, knocked down his door in the middle of the night while serving a no-knock warrant. The range owner replied that they would most likely be greeted by a barrage of gunfire coming primarily from one or more semi-automatic rifles. He acknowledged there was no way that he would be able to "defeat" the officers and that he would ultimately either have to surrender, or be killed, but the loss of life during the event would be significant to which the instructor whole heatedly agreed. The instructor then turned to his team of detectives and stated "This is why we KNOCK before we enter a home gentlemen. There are a whole lot of people out there just like Mr. X"

 

[Route 45]

Gee, I sure hope the police stop doing no-knock warrants.

Me too. I'd hate for anyone to get killed because they couldn't be bothered to verify an address or actually knock and identify themselves before committing a home invasion.

 

[thelefthand]

Y'all can do what you want. I do not pay your bills.

I HIGHLY suggest education, from experts, on the legal system. It'll cure a lot of ignorance.

You're giving WAY too much credit to our legal system. Any actual "legal expert" will tell you that a jury trial is a crap shoot with the odds tilted towards who's ever paying the most for their lawyer. Best to avoid the situation all together, but when an intruder enters your home, they have painted you into a corner, possibly literally. At the end of the day, in Indiana, a person has the right to defend their "castle" period. When you enter another person's castle, you are at their mercy. If you enter illegally, the king/queen of the castle is free to deal with you however they choose which is exactly how it should be if we are indeed free men and women. Anyone morally corrupt enough to illegally enter someone's home, regardless of the reason, has earned whatever response they receive.

 

[HoughMade]

[FONT=&amp](Defense): Your Honor, Indiana Code 35-41-3-2 states that, “a person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person and does not have a duty to retreat…if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person’s unlawful entry of or attack on the person’s dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.” Being as the suspect unlawfully entered the defendants dwelling while the defendant was occupying it, we move that this case be dismissed...[/FONT]

I wish I was surprised that it took so long for someone to quote the relevant statute.

 

[Route 45]

Some people might want to reevaluate whether they have the stomach to use deadly force against another person. Standing in your living room facing an intruder with no will to pull the trigger is a recipe for disaster. Might be better served with a can of pepper spray and a set of prayer beads.

 

[Doug]

I'm not standing in the living room; I'm behind concealment watching the chokepoint the perpetrator must come through to reach my family.
Because of distance and lighting, I can identify the target. If appropriate, I can challenge the invader or, if he is armed, simply open fire.
I am not pondering legalities to decide what I'm going to do; the decisions have already been made in the quiet of tactical analysis and are simply being implemented. Again, if you don't know what you're going to do, you won't know what to do.

 

[HoughMade]

Some people might want to reevaluate whether they have the stomach to use deadly force against another person. Standing in your living room facing an intruder with no will to pull the trigger is a recipe for disaster. Might be better served with a can of pepper spray and a set of prayer beads.

If someone breaks into my house with me in it...I'm not interested in trying to read his mind. I'll take my statutory presumption and use it.

 

[Route 45]

I'm not standing in the living room; I'm behind concealment watching the chokepoint the perpetrator must come through to reach my family.
Because of distance and lighting, I can identify the target. If appropriate, I can challenge the invader or, if he is armed, simply open fire.
I am not pondering legalities to decide what I'm going to do; the decisions have already been made in the quiet of tactical analysis and are simply being implemented. Again, if you don't know what you're going to do, you won't know what to do.

Very thoughtful of the intruder to only attempt a break in when your family is all behind concealment. Is there a sign or something, so the intruder knows where the chokepoint is? Wouldn't want to thow a monkey wrench into your pre-selected scenario.

 

[bobzilla]

Very thoughtful of the intruder to only attempt a break in when your family is all behind concealment. Is there a sign or something, so the intruder knows where the chokepoint is? Wouldn't want to thow a monkey wrench into your pre-selected scenario.

It’s why we have early warning systems in our house. Large German shepherds bark. Loud and agreesive(the mouse has heard it). Our house is relatively secluded. No close by neighbors. If you’re in my driveway it’s not by accident. If you cone to the door and hear that large German Shepherd barking and STILL come in I can only assume the worst is in store for me and mine.

now I’m not going after anyone. But you cone in the door and make it to the next (bedroom) it’s not going to end well for you I can assure you. I might even sue your family for cleanup and damages.

 

[Doug]

Route 45, you seem to think evaluating the most likely points of entry and making a plan on how to deal with that is pretty useless.

I admit my plan doesn't work if they come through the wall with a bulldozer or chop through the roof or dig under the house and come up through the floor. In those cases, I'll do something else.

I choose to think about what might happen and make plans to deal with that. It doesn't mean I'm a one trick pony who can do only one thing.

If you choose not to make any plans or consider any scenarios, good luck.

 

[BugI02]

I'm not standing in the living room; I'm behind concealment watching the chokepoint the perpetrator must come through to reach my family.
Because of distance and lighting, I can identify the target. If appropriate, I can challenge the invader or, if he is armed, simply open fire.
I am not pondering legalities to decide what I'm going to do; the decisions have already been made in the quiet of tactical analysis and are simply being implemented. Again, if you don't know what you're going to do, you won't know what to do.

The disconnect is that for some people, the 'choke point' that indicates their family is in danger is the perimeter of their domicile at the time it is forcefully breached

 

[maxwelhse]

The disconnect is that for some people, the 'choke point' that indicates their family is in danger is the perimeter of their domicile at the time it is forcefully breached

Perfectly stated.

 

[HoughMade]

 

[Route 45]

Route 45, you seem to think evaluating the most likely points of entry and making a plan on how to deal with that is pretty useless.

I admit my plan doesn't work if they come through the wall with a bulldozer or chop through the roof or dig under the house and come up through the floor. In those cases, I'll do something else.

I choose to think about what might happen and make plans to deal with that. It doesn't mean I'm a one trick pony who can do only one thing.

If you choose not to make any plans or consider any scenarios, good luck.

I never said that considering any scenario was useless. In fact, that is what YOU implied with your "chokepoint" nonsense, suggesting that you wouldn't be in your living room because you know exactly how your scenario will play out.

So the only other way to get to you without a bulldozer is through your chokepoint? I bet that's a weird floorplan.