Officer killed by grenade explosion

[Bunnykid68]

I've had Flash Bang training.
I've assembled the things.
I've detonated the things.
My best guess is that the unit wasn't assembled and he detonated the fuse assembly outside of the casing.
In that situation the fuse itself is capable of producing deadly shrapnel and secondary projectiles from objects near the fuse when it detonates.
In any case it appears to have been an issue of training and discipline, not a failure of the device.

Yep the device worked as designed, capable of killing.

 

[96firephoenix]

I don't get it. how can a non-lethal device kill someone? I think someone somewhere is lying to the public.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I've had Flash Bang training.
I've assembled the things.
I've detonated the things.
My best guess is that the unit wasn't assembled and he detonated the fuse assembly outside of the casing.
In that situation the fuse itself is capable of producing deadly shrapnel and secondary projectiles from objects near the fuse when it detonates.
In any case it appears to have been an issue of training and discipline, not a failure of the device.

maybe. Ive had training too. are you saying that based on your training they are still non-lethal when used in tact?

im more thinking that it detonated and either created shrapnel itself or with other items in his trunk ,, it wouldnt even require shrapnel to kill him with one. they are bad news. I would still like to see what type it was. yes lack of training probly played a part but the device still could have malfunctioned after he accidentally armed it. or its even possible he died of a head injury from hitting the upper part of his trunk lid. hell it could have even given him a heart attack. we need more details.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I don't get it. how can a non-lethal device kill someone? I think someone somewhere is lying to the public.

They are not really non lethal, they are just like the bean bags and other things, they are less lethal. That should give ya a 50/50 chance. Hell, pepper spray can be lethal

 

[phylodog]

Who dubbed them less lethal? Were they dubbed "less lethal" or "less than lethal"? It's quite obvious that the author of that article is not in favor of their use. Semantics? Yes, but an important difference. The word grenade is generally associated with a fragmentation grenade used by the military. A flash bang grenade is less likely to cause death than a fragmentation grenade. The term "less than lethal" has been inappropriately applied to tools in use by LE by both members of the media as well as police officers. "Less lethal" does not mean incapable of causing death. It means that if used as intended, the device is less likely to cause death or serious bodily injury than tools designed for those purposes.

Bean bag rounds fall into this category, as do Tasers. Bean bag rounds are considered "less lethal" devices. Have bean bag rounds caused death? Yes. There are proper ways to use them and applying them improperly can and has been considered lethal force. Shoot someone in the head with a bean bag round = lethal force. Taser someone in a swimming pool and keep zapping them when they go under = lethal force.

I have had training with flash bang grenades. Proper training and deployment means that they are not blindly thrown into a residence or business. I was trained, and our procedures clearly state, that the person deploying the flash bang will look before deploying the device to ensure it will not be landing close to a person. We do not throw them deep into a residence, they are dropped just inside the door. If that cannot happen safely and the pin has been pulled the flash bang will be tossed outside of the house. We also have the option of attaching them to a bang stick (basically a pole with the bang attached to the end) which allows better control. We use these to deploy outside of second story windows.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Who dubbed them less lethal? Were they dubbed "less lethal" or "less than lethal"? It's quite obvious that the author of that article is not in favor of their use. Semantics? Yes, but an important difference. The word grenade is generally associated with a fragmentation grenade used by the military. A flash bang grenade is less likely to cause death than a fragmentation grenade. The term "less than lethal" has been inappropriately applied to tools in use by LE by both members of the media as well as police officers. "Less lethal" does not mean incapable of causing death. It means that if used as intended, the device is less likely to cause death or serious bodily injury than tools designed for those purposes.

Bean bag rounds fall into this category, as do Tasers. Bean bag rounds are considered "less lethal" devices. Have bean bag rounds caused death? Yes. There are proper ways to use them and applying them improperly can and has been considered lethal force. Shoot someone in the head with a bean bag round = lethal force. Taser someone in a swimming pool and keep zapping them when they go under = lethal force.

I have had training with flash bang grenades. Proper training and deployment means that they are not blindly thrown into a residence or business. I was trained, and our procedures clearly state, that the person deploying the flash bang will look before deploying the device to ensure it will not be landing close to a person. We do not throw them deep into a residence, they are dropped just inside the door. If that cannot happen safely and the pin has been pulled the flash bang will be tossed outside of the house. We also have the option of attaching them to a bang stick (basically a pole with the bang attached to the end) which allows better control. We use these to deploy outside of second story windows.

Very well said sir. Rep inbound. Damn, I think your a cop and I'm agreeing with you, the end is surely near.

 

[E5RANGER375]

yeah, tomatoes, tommattas, I agree with phylodog. im not as hung up on the wording really, just the use at all. Phylodog, it sounds like you guys are deploying them more as a attention getter to provoke a desired response within the residence, and im actually ok with that when they are used outside the residence. but inside, i dont agree with. thanks for your explanation though

 

[96firephoenix]

I don't get it. how can a non-lethal device kill someone? I think someone somewhere is lying to the public.

They are not really non lethal, they are just like the bean bags and other things, they are less lethal. That should give ya a 50/50 chance. Hell, pepper spray can be lethal

ok, so its the person who wrote the headline?

I would never have called one "non-lethal" after having one go off about 30yds away at Boy's State back in high school.

 

[BarryJaxon]

At the "big house"where i work we gottem by the basket full,the best in my exp. are a wooden block round fired from a 12 guage,easy to skip off the floor or wall,and yeah they hurt like hell"trust me".

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

Who dubbed them less lethal? Were they dubbed "less lethal" or "less than lethal"? .

I believe they are marketed as "non-lethal."

PMCCS

 

[UncleMike]

I believe they are marketed as "non-lethal."

PMCCS

So are Bic Pens but I can kill any person alive with one.
ANY object can become lethal when used contrary to it's intended purpose.

 

[BarryJaxon]

So are Bic Pens but I can kill any person alive with one.
ANY object can become lethal when used contrary to it's intended purpose.

THIS^Lemme tell ya people would be impressed/appalled to see what a DOC inmate can acomplish with a pencil,but the state says they must havem...

 

[patience0830]

2nd hand story

My best friend from H/S has been an SF soldier for close to 30 yrs and the only really unpleasant training accident he ever witnessed involved a leutenant losing a hand to a flashbang. Not toys. Title pun intended.

 

[E5RANGER375]

My best friend from H/S has been an SF soldier for close to 30 yrs and the only really unpleasant training accident he ever witnessed involved a leutenant losing a hand to a flashbang. Not toys. Title pun intended.

yeah, if that force cannot be vented properly then basically it turns into a real grenade or a pipe bomb. thats why I said before it depends how he had this secured and what was in his trunk that could have turned into projectiles.

 

[rambone]

So are Bic Pens but I can kill any person alive with one.
ANY object can become lethal when used contrary to it's intended purpose.

People do die when these are used for their intended purpose. Maybe not officers, since they are armored up and behind a wall. But it happens. Departments should be encouraged to use these much more sparingly, along with these No-Knock warrants that seem to be the modern standard of dealing with the public.

 

[phylodog]

People do die when these are used for their intended purpose. Maybe not officers, since they are armored up and behind a wall. But it happens. Departments should be encouraged to use these much more sparingly, along with these No-Knock warrants that seem to be the modern standard of dealing with the public.

People do not die when these are used properly and for their intended purpose.

 

[mrjarrell]

People do not die when these are used properly and for their intended purpose.

Absolute rubbish, phylo. There have been numerous reports of people injured by these things, as well as house burnt down and people dying in the resulting fires. They should never have been placed in the hands of the police. It's just another military toy that has no place in proper police work. If you want to play soldier, join the Army.

 

[22lr]

Absolute rubbish, phylo. There have been numerous reports of people injured by these things, as well as house burnt down and people dying in the resulting fires. They should never have been placed in the hands of the police. It's just another military toy that has no place in proper police work. If you want to play soldier, join the Army.

What part of "When used properly" do you not understand?

 

[mrjarrell]

What part of "When used properly" do you not understand?

In the instances where they have set peoples homes on fire and killed people they WERE "used properly". How do we know this? Because the police cleared themselves of any wrongdoing in each and every instance.

 

[TREETOP]

That article is misleading. From what I remember, the accident happened while the officer was off-duty, and at his own residence. He had no business in my opinion taking a flashbang grenade home with him, they are required to be kept in special containment per HAZMAT. I believe it was also determined that he removed the pin for some reason and was attempting to reinsert it. I think it detonated while he was holding it against his chest and "reinserting the pin". The whole thing reeked of a suicide coverup to me, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and consider it a tragic accident instead.