Officer Shoots at Homeowner on False Alarm Call

[d.kaufman]

There is no element of surprise when an alarm is blaring.

Does every alarm blare? I do believe there are alarms that are silent. Just send a call to the authorities or to the company with whom the security is provided who then relays that info to the police. And is a burglar going to answer the front door when you knock....that part seems real silly

 

[VUPDblue]

There is no element of surprise when an alarm is blaring.

Almost no home alarms I've gone to have audible sirens, and I've been to thousands.

 

[Ggreen]

Does every alarm blare? I do believe there are alarms that are silent. Just send a call to the authorities or to the company with whom the security is provided who then relays that info to the police. And is a burglar going to answer the front door when you knock....that part seems real silly

A kid or home owner who messed up and set off their own alarm will.


This thread is quickly turning into a dogpile on anyone who criticizes police tactics that endanger officers and innocents. Non insulting constructive criticism is not acceptable on ingo, but insults and personal attacks to anyone who questions "standard operating procedures" are welcome and encouraged.

This event could have resulted in a legal gun owner getting killed by a cop for clearing his own home, and opening the bank door when a man in black was there who wasn't supposed to be. A knock on the door would have prevented the entire situation. Ingo responsive, "cop shuda kilt em"... what am i missing? Cops knock on doors to serve felony warrants of known dangerous individuals. I've seen them do it every weekend on live pd.

 

[Ggreen]

Almost no home alarms I've gone to have audible sirens, and I've been to thousands.

I've never lived in a home or a workplace that didn't have an audible alarm somewhere. How else would you know to wake up or check it out? I know they have silent alarms, but they seem viable in an extended away from home situation. Most of the rentals i lived in, in the usaf were tied into the fire alarms. My sample size is smaller

 

[VUPDblue]

A kid or home owner who messed up and set off their own alarm will.


This thread is quickly turning into a dogpile on anyone who criticizes police tactics that endanger officers and innocents. Non insulting constructive criticism is not acceptable on ingo, but insults and personal attacks to anyone who questions "standard operating procedures" are welcome and encouraged.

This event could have resulted in a legal gun owner getting killed by a cop for clearing his own home, and opening the bank door when a man in black was there who wasn't supposed to be. A knock on the door would have prevented the entire situation. Ingo responsive, "cop shuda kilt em"... what am i missing? Cops knock on doors to serve felony warrants of known dangerous individuals. I've seen them do it every weekend on live pd.

I don't know how to say this tactfully, so I'm just gonna say it the hard way. You are 1000% ignorant of police tactics and your ideas to "fix them" are just stupid. The way we handle alarms is the way that keeps homeowners and officers safe and there are millions and millions of alarm runs that officers respond to as evidence of our tactics working. We also do a fair job of catching burglars when we can get to the alarms in time. You're welcome to question tactics and procedure but until you come up with a proven method that makes sense, please go back to doing whatever it is you're good at because police work isn't it.

 

[Ggreen]

Well this case almost ended in homeowner getting shot. So sure your right the tactics have reached the pinnacle. I'll enjoy my ignorance working in a high risk career with an epic safety record that came about once we accepted open and honest criticism without getting offended by new ideas that counter the norm.


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unless you question police

 

[chezuki]

 

[VUPDblue]

You are welcome to question all you wish, which you have. The solution you came up with is unsafe and counterproductive to public safety. It's not that you can't "Question police", it's that you don't like the answer you got as to why your idea is not practical or safe.

 

[jsharmon7]

"General Forum Rules

1) INGunOwners.com is viewed by thousands of people a day (not all of them gun owners or even gun friendly) As a public board we must make a good impression to those who view our community and represent Hoosier Gun Owners in the best possible light. INGO is a family friendly site and material posted must remain G-rated. Spamming, trolling, flaming or other personal attacks will not be tolerated. "

unless you question police

Nobody is attacking you personally. The fact is you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about and the tactics you’re advocating are insanely bad. This has everything to do with your argument and nothing to do with you personally. The average LEO responds to multiple alarm calls per day. Multiplied by tens of thousands of Officers per day across the country. You’re looking at one incident and arguing the whole system is broken when the reality is the off-duty LEO homeowner made a stupid choice.

 

[Ggreen]

Nobody is attacking you personally. The fact is you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about and the tactics you’re advocating are insanely bad. This has everything to do with your argument and nothing to do with you personally. The average LEO responds to multiple alarm calls per day. Multiplied by tens of thousands of Officers per day across the country. You’re looking at one incident and arguing the whole system is broken when the reality is the off-duty LEO homeowner made a stupid choice.

You should see my pm's after vupd's post lol.

But anyway it's crazy to me the responses after events like this. The blind rubber stamp this is how we do it with no ability to consider alternatives reply. Had the homeowner shot the unnanounced guy with a gun wearing all black in his back yard he would burn, had the cop killed the homeowner carrying a gun checking out his alarm, no problems. My first post was a comment on the insanity of the posts wishing the cop had better aim and killed this guy. Everyone is so sensitive and polar that we are unable to have conversations without resorting to name calling.

To me it's far less safe to be in an unfamiliar back yard. The alarm has at least been beeping for 5 minutes, fiught or flight reaction tells me dude has ran or has barricaded and set up a fighting position. Knocking on the front door leaves you near the road and near help. Going to the back yard alone seems like a good way to maybe catch a fleeing burglar, or a bullet from an elevated and hardened position or worse. I don't see a tactical argument against knocking when i watch cops do it every weekend on live pd, the only answer i got here is"that's how we do it" fine, but why? Seems as risky if not more so than standing off the side od the door announcing yourself.

 

[Bapak2ja]

I openly admit my ignorance of police tactics and training. I have no knowledge in this field, not even from watching LEO do his job on the live police channels. I do, though, recognize that the greatest danger this homeowner faced, based on the video, was from a LEO. Then, once the LEO recognized his mistake, he continued to humiliate the homeowner by ordering him to prostrate himself before the LEO.

What about this scenario gives one any confidence in LEO? If the Rightsell killing was justified, then this LEO was justified in taking out the homeowner—who survived only because of LEO's poor aim. (No slam on LEO intended here).

LEO has a tough job, and I want LEO to go home safe every night just as I desire to do. But how can one view calling LEO at need as a safe and wise action when we see so many of these events going south, and the LEO being above reproach? At present, it seems LEO is a significant danger to the citizen homeowner, or the citizen trying to repair his daughter's vehicle. Yet, LEO, on here at least, seems unwilling to recognize that problem or speculate on possible adjustments to current SOP. Of course, LEOs are free to set their own standards, and we must simply go to our knees before them. Without LEO, we have Deadwood; with them, we have Prohibition Era Chicago and a war on drugs that cannot be won.

Once again I see wisdom in that basic warning, "Never talk to the police." They are not your friends, and everything you say will be used to destroy you. Their job is to build a case against you, not serve and protect.

Tip of the hat to the good ones, but a significant paradigm shift is needed. JMHO.

 

[woodsie57]

That's a clear and rational explanation of the conundrum.

 

[cosermann]

Glad this worked out ok for all involved (i.e. no injuries). Some lessons to be learned here. How about this for a homeowner - don't open the door and lead with a gun eh?

No reason to do that. You're in your house. You're safe. If you think there's a perp prowling in the backyard, stay in the house and call your local LEO. Simple.

Go out looking for trouble and you just might find some.

 

[jsharmon7]

Glad this worked out ok for all involved (i.e. no injuries). Some lessons to be learned here. How about this for a homeowner - don't open the door and lead with a gun eh?

No reason to do that. You're in your house. You're safe. If you think there's a perp prowling in the backyard, stay in the house and call your local LEO. Simple.

Go out looking for trouble and you just might find some.

I think this is quite sound advice. Lock the doors, Alamo up, and call 911. At the very least, identify your target before rushing into the open to engage unnecessarily.

 

[Ggreen]

I think this is quite sound advice. Lock the doors, Alamo up, and call 911. At the very least, identify your target before rushing into the open to engage unnecessarily.

Maybe this is good advice both ways?

 

[bwframe]

Wow again...

 

[Bapak2ja]

I think this is quite sound advice. Lock the doors, Alamo up, and call 911. At the very least, identify your target before rushing into the open to engage unnecessarily.

Maybe this is good advice both ways?

Again, I am a non-LEO and I am working from an average citizen perspective, but it seems to me that the LEO involved failed to follow basic rules of gun safety, firing before he recognized his target. He did not identify the target before he fired. Even Men In Black 1 had a scene where Will Smith had to distinguish between a good target and a not-to-be-shot target. Of course, that was only in the movies; I guess it does not apply to real life.

 

[Dead Duck]

Again, I am a non-LEO and I am working from an average citizen perspective, but it seems to me that the LEO involved failed to follow basic rules of gun safety, firing before he recognized his target. He did not identify the target before he fired. Even Men In Black 1 had a scene where Will Smith had to distinguish between a good target and a not-to-be-shot target. Of course, that was only in the movies; I guess it does not apply to real life.

If the officer didn't try to shoot this target I'm betting he would have been reprimanded. That perp drew a gun on him..... or did you not see that part.

Several times in my life I have had cops draw guns on me while barking orders. I can't even imagine the outcome if I had pulled on them or told them I'm not kneeling for the FUZZ.

 

[edporch]

To have the door suddenly fly open with a man pointing a pistol at him, I don't blame the cop for shooting.
Plus the cop didn't know it was the homeowner.

Maybe on TV they'd have stood there pointing pistols at each other without firing, then the homeowner would've lowered his pistol when he saw it was a cop as he told him it was his house.
Then they'd shake hands and agree to meet for a beer later.
But I doubt that would happen in real life.

 

[HoughMade]

Again, I am a non-LEO and I am working from an average citizen perspective, but it seems to me that the LEO involved failed to follow basic rules of gun safety,

firing before he recognized his target. He did not identify the target before he fired.

Um...."guy flinging door open and pointing gun at me" seems like enough identity. I don't think this rule means that you have to get 3 forms of ID and a Transunion report.

Even Men In Black 1 had a scene where Will Smith had to distinguish between a good target and a not-to-be-shot target. Of course, that was only in the movies; I guess it does not apply to real life.

Even in that movie, none of the "good guys" was pointing a gun. And I have a problem with shooting the little girl even if she was "up to no good". Y'know, "pre-crime" and all.

Maybe on TV they'd have stood there pointing pistols at each other without firing, then the homeowner would've lowered his pistol when he saw it was a cop as he told him it was his house. ...

Do you want more dead cops? "Cause that's how you get more dead cops.