Open Carry is Expanding

[9mmfan]

Some good news then. Be sure not to post this on Glock Talk; they are mostly a bunch of anit-oc nazi's.

 

[Apriliaguy]

Why are they ashamed of thier Tupperware. Lol i kid. I just started oc ing my g26 in od green. I hate to admit it but it looks beautiful in my serpa holster. I love oc ing. I bought a dale fricke archangel and my three yr old girl was on top of me she actually knocked my gun loose from its retention. That was it for me. Serpa here i come. Thank you for opening up my eyes to oc. I hate to think what would happen if she hit the trigger by chance. I could care less what it would of done to me.

 

[Amishman44]

This may be wrong to do...but I've been in a situation were people were angry and verbal threats were being issued...not directly at me, but close by. While hurring to finish up my project and leave, I simply pulled my jacket up and over the pistol in it's holster, leaving it OC'd where people could see it. The yelling continued...but the threats stopped!

Personally, I prefer to CC...and not open myself up to stupid arguments...but in this case, I felt that letting them know I had a weapon was a silent way to respond that avoided additional and escalating verbal conflict.

 

[ru44mag]

I thought there was a sticky for this argument. Oh well, I agree with Bung, but I'm a wuss and don't want to deal with people, so I CC, but I think all the rest of you CCers need to man up and OC.

 

[jrogers]

Nice to know you think we are all white trash rednecks...

I don't, but I do think you need to work on reading comprehension.

I wear a cowboy hat, cowboy boots, my wranglers, and my gun everywhere I go. If that makes me a gun-totin redneck stereotype then I really don't care to talk to you either. Don't judge a book by its cover and all that.

That wasn't quite the stereotype I've seen. Think more "People of WalMart." Still, if you feel the need to play cowboy dress-up as a fashion statement I'm probably not going to approach you anyway, so no worries!

You most certainly cannot effect change by staying in the closet. If you want to see a major shift in perception, you need to get out and push for it. If not, then the "other side" will absolutely be pushing in the OTHER direction.

I don't feel that it's productive to shove the issue into people's faces, which seems to be the case at least some of the time with OC. I've heard all the stories about the furious liberal who challenges the OCer only to be converted to a pro-gun position in thirty seconds, and they seem less anecdote than fantasy. The most effective means of bringing people around to a pro-gun position is simply to make no effort to avoid the subject, then offer to take people who choose to discuss firearms shooting. Note that this doesn't mean plastering offensive political stickers all over the lifted F-350 you drive to your desk job, wearing shirts that advocate "voting from the rooftops," ranting about guns at the drop of a hat, or any of the other odious idiocy that so many members of "gun culture" seem to hold dear. Just take some people shooting, and that's all. I didn't always support Second Amendment rights, but all it took was a few minutes with an M16 and a High Power to convince me.

I thought there was a sticky for this argument.

That's a good point too.

 

[88E30M50]

I think open carry can be effective in changing what people think. I've been a customer of Starbucks for years and do not recall a single time when I was not armed there. When I'm dressed well, I OC. Over the years, I have come to know many of the regulars there and they know me and know I'm a software engineer, not a cop. I've had one direct interaction with a customer and that was when they stopped by on their way out to thank me for carrying. One of the Starbucks employees had never been to the range, so we introduced him to shooting down at Atterbury. Had I just CC'd all of the time, that would not have happened.

OC can help change minds. Especially when OC breaks the stereotypes people are used to.

 

[Bung]

I don't feel that it's productive to shove the issue into people's faces, which seems to be the case at least some of the time with OC. I've heard all the stories about the furious liberal who challenges the OCer only to be converted to a pro-gun position in thirty seconds, and they seem less anecdote than fantasy. The most effective means of bringing people around to a pro-gun position is simply to make no effort to avoid the subject, then offer to take people who choose to discuss firearms shooting. Note that this doesn't mean plastering offensive political stickers all over the lifted F-350 you drive to your desk job, wearing shirts that advocate "voting from the rooftops," ranting about guns at the drop of a hat, or any of the other odious idiocy that so many members of "gun culture" seem to hold dear. Just take some people shooting, and that's all. I didn't always support Second Amendment rights, but all it took was a few minutes with an M16 and a High Power to convince me.

So then how do we bring it up? How do we find people that don't like guns and then take them shooting? What civil rights issue can you name that has ever gained ground by staying in the shadows? Rosa Parks should have stayed at the back of the bus and just wrote notes to people at random? Certainly she shouldn't have shoved the plight of her people into our faces by not going to the back of the bus, right? I think you have some other issue here. Maybe you should try open carry yourself, get our perspective on it. Sure, not everyone that open carries is the best representative, but instead of complaining about it, do the positive representing yourself.

You know, the seat belt doesn't always save your life, so just stop wearing it. That is the same logic you seem to imply here. You did say it only seems to be the case some of the time so of course that means we should just stop OC'ing. You aren't making any sense at all.

 

[jrogers]

So then how do we bring it up? How do we find people that don't like guns and then take them shooting? What civil rights issue can you name that has ever gained ground by staying in the shadows? Rosa Parks should have stayed at the back of the bus and just wrote notes to people at random? Certainly she shouldn't have shoved the plight of her people into our faces by not going to the back of the bus, right? I think you have some other issue here. Maybe you should try open carry yourself, get our perspective on it. Sure, not everyone that open carries is the best representative, but instead of complaining about it, do the positive representing yourself.

You know, the seat belt doesn't always save your life, so just stop wearing it. That is the same logic you seem to imply here. You did say it only seems to be the case some of the time so of course that means we should just stop OC'ing. You aren't making any sense at all.

Comparing open carry to the civil rights movement is a nonstarter. I've no idea where you got the idea that I'm anti-carry. I certainly advocate carry by responsible, law-abiding adults and do so myself, but concealed.

I must be in the minority around here, but I believe that getting into political arguments in public is crass and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. The post you quoted included my personal approach to "converting" people to a more pro-gun position, but I'll restate it: Don't hide that you are pro-gun, but avoid being an anti-gun strawman or harping on about guns because that will turn people off. The best candidates are those who are willing to bring up the subject themselves when they know you're a recreational shooter/gun owner, even if the subject is raised in the context of challenging your position. Offer to take them shooting, and actually follow through.

Note that this isn't intended as a condemnation of open carry in general, just my personal approach. There is really nothing to be gained by debating the merits of open carry on INGO.

 

[halfmileharry]

I OC and CC both. I ALWAYS carry a copy of the Indiana Code in my wallet and when I'm approached I try to be a good example and responsible gun owner. I explain my rights and most non gun owners don't know OC is legal and where and how we're legally ALLOWED to carry.
I don't always dress nice but I always present myself nice.

 

[the1kidd03]

Comparing open carry to the civil rights movement is a nonstarter.

The 2A IS a civil right; and a natural right.

Civil rights is not just that which only pertains to race or ethnicity.

 

[jrogers]

The 2A IS a civil right; and a natural right.

Civil rights is not just that which only pertains to race or ethnicity.

You are correct in that the 2nd Amendment is a civil rights issue.

But that doesn't mean that comparing the guy who wants to strap a m1911 to his waist and parade around the mall to Rosa Parks is the sort of argument that people not predisposed to consider carry a fundamental right are likely to find compelling. It is far more likely to turn them off completely. One would be wise to consider one's audience.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I just read the article. Sorry to be 2 days late to the thread. But there are 3 things that caught my eye that I must have missed discussion on on this site. And yeah, I realize this is, first and foremost, an INDIANA gun forum but still, if these what the author seems to be asserting what they mean, this is pretty good advancement. The last two items would seem to have a direct bearing on citizens of IN.

As a result, adults in Arkansas no longer need a permit to carry a handgun concealed or openly.

Subsequently on in Bonidy v. USPS Order the federal District Court in Denver struck down the United States Postal Service’s regulation banning gun carry in vehicles and on foot in postal parking lots because “n sum, openly carrying a firearm outside the home is a liberty protected by the Second Amendment.”

Additionally, pursuant to the Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable search and seizure, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit reversed a lower court and held in Black v. United States that open carry of a holstered handgun does not provide cause for police to detain a citizen.

 

[jrogers]

The last two items would seem to have a direct bearing on citizens of IN.

Not in and of themselves. We're 7th District, and those decisions affect the 10th and 4th respectively.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Not in and of themselves. We're 7th District, and those decisions affect the 10th and 4th respectively.

Good point.

 

[the1kidd03]

You are correct in that the 2nd Amendment is a civil rights issue.

But that doesn't mean that comparing the guy who wants to strap a m1911 to his waist and parade around the mall to Rosa Parks is the sort of argument that people not predisposed to consider carry a fundamental right are likely to find compelling. It is far more likely to turn them off completely. One would be wise to consider one's audience.

Agreed. I took your statement as meaning it's not a civil right.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

We all practice selective observation, but you may be right. I don't see very many people open carrying up my way. I don't much care how people who carry concealed dress, as they aren't self selecting as ambassadors for gun owners everywhere. I confess I did run out to the store last week in jeans and a decade-old concert shirt over a G19 in an MTAC, but I grew out of tugging at my shirt every ten seconds years ago.

My primary point is still that no soccer mom is going to see a pistol on your hip and experience an epiphany, emerging from Starbucks a newly-minted supporter of the Second Amendment as we interpret it.

And what do you base your arguments on? You do not open carry, rarely see anyone who does so that automatically means it is a worthless cause that does not spread 2A awareness?

I cannot count the number of conversations I have had, educating so many types of people about our rights simply because they saw I had a holstered gun and seemed friendly and approachable. What is shocking/scary are the number of people that carry in public that have NO idea what is legal.

 

[LanceRobbins24]

Just because the interwebz show some idiot posing for a pic in Starbucks with an AR or videoing himself parading up and down a street with a long gun does not mean all of us that choose to carry openly are cut from the same cloth. I'm a business professional that presents myself in a respectful and approachable manner that happens to have an exposed firearm on my hip when I'm in public. If someone cares to bring it up once they notice my firearm, I'm more than happy to share the facts of the Indiana code and what WORKS BEST FOR ME. Is it for everyone? No. But, it is the preferred method of carry FOR ME. If you want to carry concealed, carry on brother. I'm not going to tell you "you're doing it wrong", so for people to peer down their noses at OC'ers gets me a bit worked up. I thought we were all on the same side, but apparently we aren't.

 

[Bung]

I still don't get how he expects to engage people who either don't like guns or they are indifferent if you carry concealed. You say not to keep your 2A position secret, what does that mean for changing the views of another person or educating a person on the law? Do you wear a shirt with pro-2A wording? Maybe listen for the chance to mention you are pro-carry (eavesdropping) and then offer to take them shooting? How do you change the views of the public if the public doesn't know your position?

If comparing 2A civil rights to Rosa Parks would turn a person off, then they would likely be a lost cause to begin with. If they truly feel my ability to carry a firearm to protect myself is not similar to racial rights, then there isn't much I can do to change their mind, is there? I have a LOT more positive reactions to my carry then negative reactions. You really should try it. I still can't see a solid reason for your dislike of open carry.

The fact remains that as long as the public only sees guns when shootings occur, they will always see them as a threat or in a negative way. It is up to us to show them positive images. I have been asked often why I feel the need to carry. I can't think of any encounter where I didn't give a reason the other person never thought of. I would have never been able to have that conversation if I wasn't carrying in the open. That person would have had no reason to ask me about guns or my reasons for carry.

 

[Somemedic]

Who cares what he thinks..... I truly don't care what others think as I grocery shop at Wal-Mart while OCing. Working with the public has taught me many things including most folks ARE oblivious and have no situational awareness.

I could be carrying a bazooka, naked, and painted pink, and still folks will walk right on past with their nose stuck in their cell. I just saw a bear on the loose video where some numbnuts almost walks into the damn think because he was so engrossed in his facebook status/angry birds/candy crush bs he forgot to look up and see a big bear roaming through a neighborhood.

Also, lots of folks are plain dumb and refuse to take responsibility for themselves. A brother firefighter stated he was called to a home in the middle of the night when a 30 somethingmale had a plumbing issue. So the fella called 911 for his perceived emergency. They arrived and showed him the plumber section of the yellow pages and promptly returned to service.

I carry openly because I strongly believe those folks that do notice my gun will simply behave themselves while I'm around or even leave me alone. But if I do get to speak with someone curious enough to ask about the weapon then I will try and answer them intelligently. If they wish to verbalize their disdain for me doing so they're quickly dismissed and I go on about my business. I do it for myself and my family. .. if I get a convert then woohoo but I will only change to suit me.

Am I a redneck? If that's the worst you can call me that's fine. Some how i'll struggle through....

 

[Kutnupe14]

If comparing 2A civil rights to Rosa Parks would turn a person off, then they would likely be a lost cause to begin with. If they truly feel my ability to carry a firearm to protect myself is not similar to racial rights, then there isn't much I can do to change their mind, is there? I have a LOT more positive reactions to my carry then negative reactions. You really should try it. I still can't see a solid reason for your dislike of open carry.

Please tell me you forgot your purple. First off, your way off base because you, by OC'ing, are expressing a right that you already have. In that I have no issue (though I disagree with OC'ing but still respect those that do). However, let's say that hell froze over, and OC'ing was made illegal, the good money is on you stopping OC'ing, and moving to CC, right?
Conversely, let say that that you were denied the ability free speech because you were white/black/brown/yellow/or green.... what's your alternative? Short of being related to Michael Jackson, Nothing. I also think that it's a fair bet, that no one could keep you from running your mouth, prostesting, marching or anything else; which while illegal, is significantly more inspiring given that you have no alternative compared to having to CC rather than OC.

Your example of comparing OCing (an well established, unthreatened right) to the speech undertaken by Rosa Parks, is an absolutely terrible analogy. When your physical freedom and safety are in question due to the act of OC'ing then you'll have a leg a stand on, until then, let's try not to confuse OC'ers as being anywhere in the same universe as Rosa Parks.