+P in 45. worth it?

[Jay]

Yes. Quite a bit actually. Ive seen everything from bb to 30-06 GSW. A 45 is not a magic ray of death. Ive worked on pleanty of people who have been shot with a .45 and lived

In how many of those wounds could you differentiate between a standard .45 ACP cartridge, and a +P, or +P+ cartridge?

Just curious.

 

[marshallartist]

In .45 I would stay away from +P. It seems to work fine with standard pressure rounds and you don't really need the extra muzzle blast and recoil.

 

[ckcollins2003]

Yes. Quite a bit actually. Ive seen everything from bb to 30-06 GSW. A 45 is not a magic ray of death. Ive worked on pleanty of people who have been shot with a .45 and lived

I'm not saying a .45 will kill everyone. I'm saying the standard cartridge is enough to stop the threat at hand.

I have now proven that since you said you had to "work on them". Which means they didn't just walk away.

The question at hand isn't whether a .45 is going to "magically kill everyone", it's whether or not the +P is really needed.

 

[hemicharger]

If 911 gets called and I show up, you get worked on regardless of where or what you were shot with. There are several firefighters, police officers and paramedics whom I work with here in Indianapolis on this board. Any one of them will tell you the same thing, its all about shot placement. A 22lr to the head will stop someone faster than a .45 to the leg. In regards to a shot to the chest, there are only a few areas where 1 shot will stop someone immediatley. CNS disruption is the fastest, almost instant (head shot). You can bleed out quickly from a hit to the aorta or heart but the attacker will still have a few seconds of life left in him.

I do not work on head shots, we call them DRT on scene.

 

[ckcollins2003]

Okay, so now that we have your entire job description laid out, have you ever been able to tell a difference in a .45 shooting or even know if the round was a standard load or +P?

Or do you recommend +P over a regular .45 cartridge? Is so, why do you or don't you?

I'm actually intrigued since you've dealt with so many wounds, and I'd like to know as well. In my experience a .45 to the body will drop someone. Sure shot placement is key, as it is with any round, but if you hit someone in the leg you're going to know and follow up with what would hopefully be a body or head shot.

 

[hemicharger]

Most of the time I have no idea what caliber a person is shot with unless the gun or shell casing is near by. I usually have to get it from the police report. +P ammo helps some in barrier penetration. Just make sure the bullet construction is up the the task, ie (bonded bullet).

 

[IndyGunworks]

Okay, so now that we have your entire job description laid out, have you ever been able to tell a difference in a .45 shooting or even know if the round was a standard load or +P?

Or do you recommend +P over a regular .45 cartridge? Is so, why do you or don't you?

I'm actually intrigued since you've dealt with so many wounds, and I'd like to know as well. In my experience a .45 to the body will drop someone. Sure shot placement is key, as it is with any round, but if you hit someone in the leg you're going to know and follow up with what would hopefully be a body or head shot.

I deal w/ gunshots at work as well ( fulltime gig not the part time gig) and i will call 100% BS if anyone tells you they can look at a GSW on the street and be able to know if it was w/ standard velocity or +p

if there are no shell casings left behind (that the police politely mark for us w/ little yello cards) then more often than not we are guessing the caliber.

i can get close to the caliber of most GSWs but cant even tell them apart all the time or even a majority of the time. sometimes you cant even tell if it was a rifle or pistol.

sometimes the wounds dont even bleed and we have to go looking for the entrance and exit wounds (.45 included)

i suggest you take redneckmedics trauma class. i think it will clear up ALOT of misconceptions of what GSW's actually look like.

 

[walker]

Now keep in mind I know nothing about loads or re-loads, so keep it kind of simple.
First off do they make a +P in 45. and would it be worth it considering I shooting a Para WartHog with a 3 inch barrel?

Be gentle with me, please....

Is the gun made to handle +P loads?

 

[hemicharger]

+1 for Redneckmedic's gunshot trauma class.

 

[Indy574]

Shot placement trumps caliber, bullet type, and powder load any day of the week.

 

[Wild Deuce]

Whatever you pick make sure it works in your gun every time ... all the time. Make sure it is accurate (or that you are accurate with that load). Make sure you can make your follow up shots quickly. Those requirements will dictate your available choices.

My experience with 3-inch barrel .45's is that they are finicky in the reliablility department (GLOCKS excluded of course).

 

[cbseniour]

Yes. Quite a bit actually. Ive seen everything from bb to 30-06 GSW. A 45 is not a magic ray of death. Ive worked on pleanty of people who have been shot with a .45 and lived

they may have lived but Ill bet they went down.

 

[WebHobbit]

WOW

Some of you folks really need to read up on SD litigation. I recommend Masaad Ayoob's books like "In the Gravest Extreme" (Google it). You don't EVER want go around talking about "killing" your target in regards to SD. The object should NEVER be to kill the bad-guy. The objective should be to STOP them. If they live or die isn't really the immediate concern. We just want them to STOP. And for that you want an expanding HP bullet. Self Defense needs are completely different then war needs. In war an FMJ makes total sense. You want penetration in war. Penetration and lethality. You really don't need "stopping power" so much in war. If you blow a hole through the enemy even if they don't die instantly if you can damage plenty of their troops you can "win".

In self defense on the street or in your house you want instant incapacitation or as close to it as one can get. So please lets stop talking about "killing". The bad guy's lawyers just love that kinda talk.

Anyway IMHO +p rounds are almost ALWAYS a good idea if you and your gun can handle them. They are an especially great idea in a slow round like the .45ACP....and they are a down right MUST HAVE when you carry a gun that has a barrel shorter than standard for the caliber. If I was going to carry a short .45 I'd probably go with 185 grain +Ps

 

[Jay]

You really don't need "stopping power" so much in war.

Have you ever been in a war? I really DID need stopping power in the war I was in. WOW, yourself.

Anyway IMHO +p rounds are almost ALWAYS a good idea if you and your gun can handle them. They are an especially great idea in a slow round like the .45ACP....and they are a down right MUST HAVE when you carry a gun that has a barrel shorter than standard for the caliber. If I was going to carry a short .45 I'd probably go with 185 grain +Ps

Please see posts 16, 21, 22, 26, 27, and 30.... and I've never seen a listing of "standard barrel lengths" for a given caliber. Can you provide a link?

 

[halfmileharry]

I think it's worth considering and even trying.
Accuracy, dependability, performance, and confidence in the round you're carrying are all important.
"give it a shot" and judge for yourself.
I'm confident in a standard FMJ .45acp and have used both. I have shot the 185 gr + in my Kimber full frame and it seemed louder and wasn't as accurate for me.

 

[WebHobbit]

Have you ever been in a war? I really DID need stopping power in the war I was in. WOW, yourself.

Admittedly I have not. And of course I will bow to your experience. But let me ask you this - is it not true that causing the other side to have a crap load of injuries - isn't that tactically a great thing? Most armies would then have to care for their wounded greatly slowing them down. Have I seen too many war movies? And in all seriousness - thank you for your service.

Please see posts 16, 21, 22, 26, 27, and 30.... and I've never seen a listing of "standard barrel lengths" for a given caliber. Can you provide a link?

I'm sure with enough time Googling I could certainly provide plenty of links but there are generally speaking very well known "standard lengths" for calibers. Would go something like:

.45 ACP - 5 inch
.38, .357 - 4 inch
9mm would probably be 4 OR 4.5 (not sure off the top of my head)

Either way anything LESS than 4 would certainly be SHORT for ANY caliber (with the possible exception of certain "pimp gun" mouse calibers).


And Jay - I HAVE read this entire thread and I do agree about shot placement. But if you have a choice as to what ammo to use why not choose what COULD give you an edge? But as I said before only if both gun and shooter are up to it.

 

[Jay]

And in all seriousness - thank you for your service.

You're quite welcome...

But let me ask you this - is it not true that causing the other side to have a crap load of injuries - isn't that tactically a great thing?

It certainly is... I would never argue that..

there are generally speaking very well known "standard lengths" for calibers

I would offer that "well known" does not equal any sort of a standard, that would/could be referenced to any given caliber.

But if you have a choice as to what ammo to use why not choose what COULD give you an edge

The performance of any "+" ammo over conventional loads can be measured, but that doesn't mean that a "+" round will be any more effective than a conventional round, and wound characteristics are highly unlikely to demonstrate that. Many things can be measured that don't translate directly into an "edge". I just don't think that "+P" or "+P+" ammunition provides a meaningful "edge", and I've yet to see any supporting information to that end.

Personal preference, and opinion, but it's just that from what I've seen.

 

[LPMan59]

just buy a box of winchester bonded and sleep comfortably at night

 

[IndyGunworks]

WOW

Some of you folks really need to read up on SD litigation. I recommend Masaad Ayoob's books like "In the Gravest Extreme" (Google it). You don't EVER want go around talking about "killing" your target in regards to SD. The object should NEVER be to kill the bad-guy. The objective should be to STOP them. If they live or die isn't really the immediate concern. We just want them to STOP. And for that you want an expanding HP bullet. Self Defense needs are completely different then war needs. In war an FMJ makes total sense. You want penetration in war. Penetration and lethality. You really don't need "stopping power" so much in war. If you blow a hole through the enemy even if they don't die instantly if you can damage plenty of their troops you can "win".

In self defense on the street or in your house you want instant incapacitation or as close to it as one can get. So please lets stop talking about "killing". The bad guy's lawyers just love that kinda talk.

Anyway IMHO +p rounds are almost ALWAYS a good idea if you and your gun can handle them. They are an especially great idea in a slow round like the .45ACP....and they are a down right MUST HAVE when you carry a gun that has a barrel shorter than standard for the caliber. If I was going to carry a short .45 I'd probably go with 185 grain +Ps

actually the reason the US uses FMJ instead of jacketed hollow points is the geneva convention. had we not signed that we WOULD be using hollow points instead.

and in the war i was in stopping power was definatly needed. i could care less if they died as long as they stopped shooting at me, them getting dead being the quickest way to achieve that goal.

just buy a box of winchester bonded and sleep comfortably at night

federal HST's is where its at in todays market.


wound characteristics is the best way to put it. +p and +p+ will have no differant wound characteristics than standard velocity.

 

[WebHobbit]

All I'm saying is you WILL lose a certain amount of velocity going to a shorter than "standard" barrel length. +P can help make some of that up. If you check most manufacturer's (or other sources) sites you should be able to find the date that tells what barrel length they got the figures from.

Here for example:

LE - Tactical HST

This shows that the .45 ACP HST round in the 230 grain weight is available as +P and standard. Both were measured from a 5 inch barrel. The +P is 950 FPS at the muzzle while the standard is 890 in the same 5 inch "test barrel".

The 9mm loads are all measured in 4 inch barrels.