+P in 45. worth it?

[WebHobbit]

wound characteristics is the best way to put it. +p and +p+ will have no differant wound characteristics than standard velocity.

How in the world would you arrive at that? Speed would most certainly affect the wound channel (as would many other factors).

 

[redneckmedic]

You realize you are debating over 60fps right? There will be an insignificant amount of cavitation change with that. Vs all the variables you have to maintain to keep shot placement exactly the same.

I think you guys are on the right track, but there a few more very important variables that aren't being considered here. I'm actually surprised with some very seasoned trauma junkies and military types posting here, so I'll just list the kinematics and let you draw your own conclusion how it plays into wounds:

1) the diving one handed shot- often used in a dynamic single shooter vs many opponents, and many times when in rescue mode.

2) duel wielding - mirroring forces on opposite sides of the body, also widely used in the same type scenario as above.

3) barrel roll shooting- this is so complex in both stopping power and shot placement I'm not going to even try to describe the kinematics involved

4) jumping out of a window and shooting- 1 hint...gravity*fall speed/terminal velocity

5) shooting from a vehicle in motion -variables are infinite with speed/direction/caliber and if the ammo is actually +p or ++p

6) If train A leaves Chicago traveling 100MPH and train B leaves New York traveling 150MPH and the distance between the two cites is 600 miles how will this effect shot placement with an assault gun?

Just wanted to give yal some more theory to kick around.

HTH RNM

 

[IndyGunworks]

How in the world would you arrive at that? Speed would most certainly affect the wound channel (as would many other factors).

again, attend on or RNM trauma classes and you will understand.

this might sum it up.

 

[J_Wales]

At the risk of hijacking a thread, seeing this question makes me want to ask....

How much difference would there be between the trauma caused by a .45 ACP hollow point / wad cutter and a .45 ACP FMJ?

Just curious given that some 1911s are picky about ammo.

(Note - in a defense situation I would not use a hollowpoint in a 1911 unless I had tried several test rounds before hand to ensure little to no FTF risk... but setting FTF and FTE matters aside, I am wondering what the difference in effectiveneww of the two are)

 

[IndyGunworks]

At the risk of hijacking a thread, seeing this question makes me want to ask....

How much difference would there be between the trauma caused by a .45 ACP hollow point / wad cutter and a .45 ACP FMJ?

Just curious given that some 1911s are picky about ammo.

(Note - in a defense situation I would not use a hollowpoint in a 1911 unless I had tried several test rounds before hand to ensure little to no FTF risk... but setting FTF and FTE matters aside, I am wondering what the difference in effectiveneww of the two are)

the issue would really lay in (stopping power) not in the sense of creating a great wound in the oponent but in what the oponent actually "feels"

typically a FMJ round will not expand and will over penetrate (w/ handgun ammo that is not designed to tumble like the 5.56). what you will end up having is a bullet that zips through the opponent and out the other side w/ the wound sealing up fast behind it (these are the GSWs that entrance and exit wounds are hard to find) since all the energy is not absorbed by the target (because of overpenetration) one would argue they would "feel it less"

that being said, shot placement is still key and my thoughts about the targets reaction are subject as i have never actually witnessed the immediate results of somone being shot w/ FMJ handgun ammo.

 

[WebHobbit]

again, attend on or RNM trauma classes and you will understand.

this might sum it up.

Actually in some ways this proves velocity does effect the wound channel. The 147 grain 9mm flat out sucks compared to a 124. 147 is too HEAVY for 9mm....makes it go too slow.

More meaningful gelatin tests would show the same bullet/weight/caliber at different velocities.

All this debate is kinda silly in the grand scheme of things I suppose as handgun rounds in general are pretty weak man-stoppers anyway. Really we are arguing over incremental minutia.

 

[redneckmedic]

Really we are arguing over incremental minutia.

QFT

/thread

 

[redneckmedic]

Actually in some ways this proves velocity does effect the wound channel. The 147 grain 9mm flat out sucks compared to a 124. 147 is too HEAVY for 9mm....makes it go too slow.

More meaningful gelatin tests would show the same bullet/weight/caliber at different velocities.

Not True

Kinematics Simplfied

Kenitic energy

The weight of the bullet plays little to no effect, the speed it what is squared, so in one case you are right, faster is better, but the bigger point has been made, we are talking about 60fps. If you notice the cavitation in the gel there is no difference between the 1076f/s and the 995f/s which is 81f/s difference.

This is all taught in any trauma class.

 

[WebHobbit]

I dunno. If "trauma class" and "fancy math" proves all of this as FACT then why do we even have all the different loads at different speeds? Wouldn't the FBI, CIA, etc. stop with all the trials and tests and simply "go to the math"?

I don't think it's so cut and dried.

But again - minutia!

 

[redneckmedic]

I dunno. If "trauma class" and "fancy math" proves all of this as FACT then why do we even have all the different loads at different speeds? Wouldn't the FBI, CIA, etc. stop with all the trials and tests and simply "go to the math"?

I don't think it's so cut and dried.

But again - minutia!

The same reason I have 6 different kinds of hammers and my wife has 6 different kinds of spoons. And because we have all these different calibers... because the is the USA and WE CAN!

BTW that math isn't that fancy, I quote it every class, and I'm a redneck. The obvious answer is this, you (general person not you you) don't know what you don't know, nothing makes complete sense until you understand it. But questions are a good think, the bring enlightenment.

 

[J_Wales]

the issue would really lay in (stopping power) not in the sense of creating a great wound in the oponent but in what the oponent actually "feels"

typically a FMJ round will not expand and will over penetrate (w/ handgun ammo that is not designed to tumble like the 5.56). what you will end up having is a bullet that zips through the opponent and out the other side w/ the wound sealing up fast behind it (these are the GSWs that entrance and exit wounds are hard to find) since all the energy is not absorbed by the target (because of overpenetration) one would argue they would "feel it less"

that being said, shot placement is still key and my thoughts about the targets reaction are subject as i have never actually witnessed the immediate results of somone being shot w/ FMJ handgun ammo.

Makes sense and is consistent with what I have been taught.

Thanks for the comments

 

[45lcrevolver]

guys lets just test it out. lets all pitch in and buy a few sheep. lets see which one stays standing after a shoot from each common caliber. then we test the +p ammo and come to a conclusion. JUST JOKING!!! DONT KILL SHEEP FOR FUN!!!! but it would be intresting lmfao!!!! no but really +p is always better.

 

[redneckmedic]

+p is always better.

Please source this opinion

 

[IndyGunworks]

but really +p is always better.

once again, that is a BS statement that cannot be backed up by verifyable data.

but if carrying plus P ammo makes you feel like you have the edge, then at least you will go into it feeling confidant in what you are carrying which IS going to help make a differance.

 

[hemicharger]

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ArDRg5SkuT0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This cop was shot in the face with a .45 acp and lived. Even after being wounded by several shots with a .45 acp he was able to return fire, striking the bad guy several times and finally ending the fight by putting 3 bullets in the bad guys head.

 

[WebHobbit]

Been thinking about the argument that some of you have made based on your trauma class and what not. The thing is the damage left to the body AFTER the incident really isn't necessarily all that telling as far as the stopping power argument goes. Same with ballistic gelatin. It's certainly interesting but what we NEED is eye-witness accounts of how the bad-guy reacted to being shot. We need to know:

1) How quickly did he go down?
2) How much time passed from the moment he was shot with a good solid center mass hit before he stopped hostilities?
3) Do SOME loads produce this stopping affect FASTER and more reliably than others? If so, which ones? What do they have in common?

Again what I am concerned with is STOPPING the bad guy. I really don't care too awful much about how much permanent or temporary damage it does to his body.

Cop, Shooter and Gun Mag writer Masaad Ayoob talks about this at length in his books and articles. I listened to some recent podcasts he was in where he talks about the .357 sig having this "thunderbolt" like effect on the bad-guy. The theory is that some loads (usually but not always higher velocity rounds) have a high level of temporary shock to the body that isn't so easily quantifiable with gelatin or even the "remains" of actual shootings.

 

[qualitytym]

guys lets just test it out. lets all pitch in and buy a few sheep. lets see which one stays standing after a shoot from each common caliber. then we test the +p ammo and come to a conclusion. JUST JOKING!!! DONT KILL SHEEP FOR FUN!!!! but it would be intresting lmfao!!!! no but really +p is always better.

Sounds like an INGO event to me, followed up by a Lamby BBQ.

 

[thompal]

I do not work on head shots, we call them DRT on scene.

Is this going to change in light of the Giffords incident. do you think?

 

[Relatively Ninja]

First, a critical look at "stopping power": Handgun Wounding Factors
This is an excellent look at how bullets cause damage. It is based entirely on facts and studies with lots of references.

Second, wouldn't a +P load of the same round be a way to compensate for the velocity lost due to a shorter barrel? For example, most 9mm rounds are chronographed for velocity after being shot out of a 4-inch barrel. The manufacturer should list what barrel length they used if they are quoting specific numbers. Therefore, you could use this page to determine the effect of barrel length on the velocity of the round.

This other page shows real world bullet velocities from different ammunition out of the same weapon with various barrel lengths. So wouldn't it stand to reason that if you wanted to compensate for a shorter barrel, you would increase the velocity of the round? That way carrying a +P load in a 3-inch barrel would be similar to carrying a standard load in a 4-inch barrel just with more recoil.

I carry an XD9 Subcompact (3" barrel), so I think about these kinds of things. Never had the opportunity to do any real world testing though.

 

[pinshooter45]

The simple truth is bigger holes leak more fluid even if the projectile is only moving at 850fps