Plain-clothed cop pulls gun on speeding motorcyclist [VIDEO]

[finity]

I suppose that if you would witness a person expire while under the care of a physician, that your expert testimony in medicine, just as such testimony in LE, would be beyond repute, and completely admissible within a competent legal proceeding as such.

This is not to state that such witness testimony cannot be utilized, far from it. However, there is a difference between a layman witnessing an act and its subsequent outcome, and having some degree of expertise in the execution of such. There is a difference in offering an opinion upon a subject, and stating a certainty beyond one's qualification to do so.

Your statement is reminiscent of medical journals that offer "expert" scientific opinion of the likelihood of the morbidity and mortality of firearms ownership. This is also be comparable to the NRA and GOA publishing a treatises upon Cardiothoracic surgery.

Wrong. My statement is reminiscent of the general public recognizing that people are dying while doctors actively take advantage of them through malpractice & overcharging & calling for the government to do something about the abuses.

Please don't treat us non-LEO's as if we're too stupid to see injustice when it stares (or slaps) us in the face. That's one good thing about our Founders. They wrote the Constitution in fairly plain language (of the time) so that the average person could read it relatively easily & understand their rights.

They weren't looking to enhance the power of the government over the people. They wanted to ensure that the people retained control over our government, including the police.

So who, in your wisdom, should be the party to exert oversight on the police? Other police? That would be like leaving the proverbial wolf in charge of the henhouse.

Correct. I stopped performing such work 6 years ago, and I haven't participated in any necessary CE to maintain the credentials either.

Then my statement about having scary ideas for a cop stands. Even if not you, the ideas you promote are not isolated to you. They are systemic. That's the dangerous thing.

I imagine that assigning someone the title of troll would be particularly offensive to you, as you now appear to cross that particular line regularly. However, as I'm not the first to bestow the title upon anyone and not be called out for such use, I imagine that most don't consider such to be an attack when the truth is fairly obvious.

How many other people who disagree with you are you going to label as "troll"?

 

[IndySSD]

I think it's pretty obvious that you should call the police if you think something suspicious is going on.

I would disagree and say that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance and with that truism it falls upon the vigilant civilian to determine whether or not seemingly suspicious activity warrants a call to 911. Someone ringing your doorbell at 3am does not warrant calling 911.

It does warrant (and this is just pretty much what I do since I don't have a camera system on my front porch at this house yet) me arming myself with light and weapon, slipping out the back door and rounding the house to approach the front step from behind it (Our front door is recessed and you can approach unseen from either side of the house) and identify the person at my door. If it is someone who poses a threat you move forward with defensive actions, if it isn't, you go about your business.

People who cry wolf to 911 just slow down response times to others who may actually need LEO assistance.

If my neighbors need me, they can call. I'm not answering the door at 3am for anybody unless I know who it is before they get there.

Everyone who knows me knows to call first regardless of the time of day, including my neighbors because I have disabled my doorbell. Any unannounced knocks or entries into my residence automatically place me into a defensive mindset and I take appropriate action according to such a mindset.

Also, I don't assume that anyone who hasn't announced themselves is looking to harm me, someone may genuinely need help and as a socially aware and responsible citizen I will help people who really need it once I've performed a solid evaluation of the situation.

Troll my ass. You just don't like what I have to say.

First of all, I didn't call you a troll.

Secondly, just because you think you're making a valid point, doesn't mean you aren't just wasting other peoples time by posting. IE:Trolling. It just means you didn't do it intentionally.

Wow, really?

I figured since he always seemed to support everything they do while chastising the rest of us for not knowing our place when we haven't "been there, done that" he HAD to be a cop.

See? Assumptions really are detrimental to any real debate.

That does seem to be the preferred way to shut down reasonable debate here.

You call this a reasonable debate? Do you refer to street brawls as "less than organized boxing matches"?

I also made that assumption...

Again, Assumptions are bad MmmKay?

 

[finity]

See? Assumptions really are detrimental to any real debate.

Update!

See JBusch's last post above where he said he WAS a cop. You can take the person out of the cop but you can't take the cop (& associated prevalent mindsets) out of the person, I guess.

Besides, him being a cop (or not) had no real bearing on the debate. The attitude he holds are widespread among LEO's. I am only debating him on the merits of those ideas among police as a whole because he is the one espousing & supporting those ideas most forcefully. If others (who either are or aren't cops) would say the same my response to them would be similar.

You call this a reasonable debate?

For the most part yes, it's been a reasonable debate. Well, aside from the ones calling names & engaging personal attacks.

 

[JBusch8899]

See JBusch's last post above where he said he WAS a cop. You can take the person out of the cop but you can't take the cop (& associated prevalent mindsets) out of the person, I guess.

Wow! Does that mean that the remainder of my associated mindsets are ingrained in my personality as well? That is absolute coolness! Or, perhaps not.

As I was a cop, I must have some sense of protecting and assisting others. Though cops are always on ego trips, and always......always lie.

As I have first worked in healthcare as an EMT, progressing to Paramedic; along with obtaining my nursing license, I have a caring mindset. Even though all healthcare providers are known for being greedy burnouts.

As I volunteered as a fireman, to eventually receive an hourly wage within the department, I must have a sense of duty. Even though fireman are known for laziness, because if they weren't, they would have a real job.

As I have a Bachelors in Business Administration, and am working toward my MBA, I have an attitude and desire of learning. Even though all college students are certainly a bunch of liberal idealists.

Finity, I'm guessing that your view of LE is kind of a glass-half-empty type of attitude. As such, at least some of the examples I provided are likely to fit into your neat little box of how people think and operate. Its certainly stereotypical for you to make such presumptions about an entire profession or section of society, based upon a few perceptions you've incorporated into your mind.

 

[JBusch8899]

Originally Posted by downzero
I think it's pretty obvious that you should call the police if you think something suspicious is going on.

I would disagree and say that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance and with that truism it falls upon the vigilant civilian to determine whether or not seemingly suspicious activity warrants a call to 911. Someone ringing your doorbell at 3am does not warrant calling 911.

It does warrant (and this is just pretty much what I do since I don't have a camera system on my front porch at this house yet) me arming myself with light and weapon, slipping out the back door and rounding the house to approach the front step from behind it (Our front door is recessed and you can approach unseen from either side of the house) and identify the person at my door. If it is someone who poses a threat you move forward with defensive actions, if it isn't, you go about your business.

People who cry wolf to 911 just slow down response times to others who may actually need LEO assistance.

This^.

Originally Posted by downzero
If my neighbors need me, they can call. I'm not answering the door at 3am for anybody unless I know who it is before they get there.

Everyone who knows me knows to call first regardless of the time of day, including my neighbors because I have disabled my doorbell. Any unannounced knocks or entries into my residence automatically place me into a defensive mindset and I take appropriate action according to such a mindset.

Also, I don't assume that anyone who hasn't announced themselves is looking to harm me, someone may genuinely need help and as a socially aware and responsible citizen I will help people who really need it once I've performed a solid evaluation of the situation.

This^ again.

Originally Posted by downzero
Troll my ass. You just don't like what I have to say.

First of all, I didn't call you a troll.

Secondly, just because you think you're making a valid point, doesn't mean you aren't just wasting other peoples time by posting. IE:Trolling. It just means you didn't do it intentionally.

I did. So have a number of other posters. Kudo to you for your restraint, but I know you had to think it.

Originally Posted by finity
Wow, really?

I figured since he always seemed to support everything they do while chastising the rest of us for not knowing our place when we haven't "been there, done that" he HAD to be a cop.

See? Assumptions really are detrimental to any real debate.

While I never truly chastised anyone for anyone offering an opinion of such, I did for those that spoke from true ignorance, spite, or having a closed mind when speaking upon the subject.

Originally Posted by finity
That does seem to be the preferred way to shut down reasonable debate here.

You call this a reasonable debate? Do you refer to street brawls as "less than organized boxing matches"?

This^ once again.

Originally Posted by MinuteMan47
I also made that assumption...

Again, Assumptions are bad MmmKay?

So why didn't someone merely ask? Its not if I've ever kept such a secret.

 

[finity]

Wow! Does that mean that the remainder of my associated mindsets are ingrained in my personality as well? That is absolute coolness! Or, perhaps not.

As I was a cop, I must have some sense of protecting and assisting others. Though cops are always on ego trips, and always......always lie.

As I have first worked in healthcare as an EMT, progressing to Paramedic; along with obtaining my nursing license, I have a caring mindset. Even though all healthcare providers are known for being greedy burnouts.

As I volunteered as a fireman, to eventually receive an hourly wage within the department, I must have a sense of duty. Even though fireman are known for laziness, because if they weren't, they would have a real job.

As I have a Bachelors in Business Administration, and am working toward my MBA, I have an attitude and desire of learning. Even though all college students are certainly a bunch of liberal idealists.

Finity, I'm guessing that your view of LE is kind of a glass-half-empty type of attitude. As such, at least some of the examples I provided are likely to fit into your neat little box of how people think and operate. Its certainly stereotypical for you to make such presumptions about an entire profession or section of society, based upon a few perceptions you've incorporated into your mind.

We aren't talking about the actions of EMT's, firemen or business people. We're discussing the actions of cops. I never said ALL cops thought or acted the same. If you disagree show me where I said it. I said "prevalent mindset", not "of one mind". That means that it seems as though the majority of cops tend to think the same as you (even many on INGO). So do many courts & lawmakers hence my use of the phrase "justice system" not just "cops". I just said that it is dangerous for a cop to think as you do. It makes no difference if you're a cop or not, it's still dangerous to a free society for others who are cops to think like you in regard to your attitude toward "collateral damage" & other various police powers.

Please, don't make this about "all cops". I have no problem with "the police". I have a problem with cops who tend to think like you or at least the thinking that you've shared with the group on INGO. I would tend to not explicitly trust a cop I didn't personally know in an encounter due to the reputation that LEO's have obtained through the actions of many in their profession. I will still treat them with respect as I would any other member of the general public I had any interaction with. You have to remember though that those other members of the public can't take my freedom or finances, under color of law, with state backing, at their whim for any percieved disrespect, irrespective of what I've actually done.

 

[Protest]

in an unmarked car, out of uniform?

does not fly in indiana at least.

LE within Indiana cannot perform a traffic stop without either being in uniform, or a marked car.

I'm looking for the Indiana code on this but can't find it. Perhaps I'm searching in the wrong section. I'm looking in Title 10: Public Safety

Can anyone help?

 

[JBusch8899]

.

 

[Protest]

IC 9-30-2-2
Uniform and badge; marked police vehicle
Sec. 2. A law enforcement officer may not arrest or issue a traffic information and summons to a person for a violation of an Indiana law regulating the use and operation of a motor vehicle on an Indiana highway or an ordinance of a city or town regulating the use and operation of a motor vehicle on an Indiana highway unless at the time of the arrest the officer is:
(1) wearing a distinctive uniform and a badge of authority; or
(2) operating a motor vehicle that is clearly marked as a police vehicle; that will clearly show the officer or the officer's vehicle to casual observations to be an officer or a police vehicle. This section does not apply to an officer making an arrest when there is a uniformed officer present at the time of the arrest.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.18.

Thanks. So car with only a light bar and siren tries to pull me over, I can refuse and call 911 on my cell phone asking for further instructions?

 

[JBusch8899]

.

 

[JBusch8899]

.

 

[Protest]

No. It means that the stop cannot be for a vehicle and traffic law violation.

Criminal acts, (ie: a detective in plain clothes and unmarked car, for robbing a bank) are specifically not mentioned.

But how will I know what they're trying to pull me over for unless I pull over?

 

[JBusch8899]

.

 

[Protest]

You don't. However, you then have recourse for such.

Remember that even a department jacket with a cloth badge can qualify as a "distinctive uniform".

Agreed. But if he's in an unmarked car, that's a moot point.

 

[JBusch8899]

.

 

[finity]

So, just almost all cops have such an attitude? Well, that is certainly different.

"A majority" does not mean "almost all". It could, but not always. It means "more than not":

majority - definition of majority by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

I'm not going to say "all" or "most" but I am fairly confident that the "majority" (IOW "more than not") have your attitude.

Your twisting of the mentioned phrase, "collateral damage", that I previously used this week, certainly is in keeping with my opinion of your attitude. What I fail to recognize, is why you chose to not mention and qualify my statement, because of my subsequent post upon the matter. Could it be that you wished that I could be that tyrannical?

Ok, to be honest you did try to back off the common meaning of the phrase & qualify it by saying that "businesses & other social services" use the phrase, too. I rebutted that argument in that thread, too, by pointing out that business & social services "collateral damage" doesn't involve the killing of innocent civilians on American soil that typically happens when we discuss police "collateral damage" during botched no-knock warrants. You felt that some police "collateral damage" was acceptable in those situations.

Did I represent the conversation fairly now? It still doesn't look too good on you, does it?

What do you do for a paycheck? Could I or should I come into your place of employment and suddenly become an expert upon your job and business, despite the fact that I only have the most superficial idea of what your profession or trade may entail?

I am an industrial electrician. You can come to my place of employment anytime you want & criticize anything you want. I'm not sure why you'd want to, though.

If you hold such a prejudice toward LE, or the CJ system, then I can only speculate of the other such attitudes you have of other professions and such.

My job (& the vast majority of other jobs & professions) doesn't entail the action of enforcing governmental authority directly on the people. THAT'S what the police do. They are government actors. THE PEOPLE have a right, no, A DUTY, to complain about & criticize the police when they feel they are not acting in the best interest of THE PEOPLE. The same as the duty we have to elect new legislators & presidents when they are also not acting in the best interest of the people. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. If you feel that we can't criticize the POLICE then you should also promote the idea that we can't criticize our elected representatives...ever...for any reason. I mean, who among us has ever been an elected official so has earned the RIGHT to dare criticize the job that they're doing?

Just doesn't make sense does it?

 

[finity]

You don't. However, you then have recourse for such.

I think you're missing the point of the law.

It's to prevent people from being pulled over by people masquerading as police to rob or kill them when they stop. It's hard to have recourse when you are dead because you thought you still had to pull over even to an unmarked, non-uniformed "cop" because he could be pulling you over for a crime, not a traffic offense.

I think it would be safe to assume that if you're not a criminal that would either have warrants out for you or you haven't just committed another crime, then if the person pulling you over doesn't fall within the law (uniform/marked) then they probably AREN'T a cop & you should respond as such (i.e. call 911 & proceed to a well lit populated area or the police station if close).

 

[beararms1776]

He didn't point. Drive like a douche, get treated as such. How many lives has that cyclist possibly endangered because of his riding? Maybe none. I think the officer should have led with his ID and not the **** towel, but maybe he saw something we did not.

I agree. What else did he expect?

 

[Denny347]

This thread has outlived its usefulness.

 

[sj kahr k40]

This thread has outlived its usefulness.

I think it did that a couple days ago.